Insignia of "collaborate" organisations during WW

[Zdzislaw Rudzki]

Hi all
I am currently reading the books Foreign Legions of the 3rd Reich (thanks for the link :) ) and probably will create some insignia pages based on this information (need help in computer graphics however). But this leads me to quite important question. Where to put those insignia? Should they be under the "Third Reich" flag or under the flags of occupied countries. If yes, do we need separate section in each country named "uniformed organisations during WW II" or just put them among apropriate exsisting sections (like "police" "fire" "other")?

[ChrisWI]

I would put them under the 3rd Reich but make a seperate category for them.

[Nati]

I would put them under the 3rd Reich but make a seperate category for them.

Agreed with ChrisWI

[dharma negara]

... and time-span for each.
example : (from) late 1938 - (till) mid 1944; mid 1944 - mid 1945.

[Zdzislaw Rudzki]

All the above suggestions are natural if we talk about the real "legions" like ROA or WaffenSS or similar ...
But what about uniformed political parties and labour organisations (like in France or Belgium) ? They were teritorialy restricted to their native countries however they were "copies" of German ones (ex. Organisation Todt)

[orke]

Hi Zdzislaw.

We have former countries and current countries.Why not countries in the Second World War?Then these countries would have to be led in addition, under this flag.For nations for other countries or in their armies fought, under their flag.Would be so the Polish nation in:England, France, the USA and USSR and German.The same for Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway etc..In addition, the Baltic countries, except Finland.As a period I became 1936(!) until 1945 selects.

Mario

[orke]

Hi Zdzislaw.


With the graphic I offer my assistance to you.

[Zdzislaw Rudzki]

Hi Orke
Your suggestion seems to be very good. Taking one step behind we could also create a category of WW 1 countries which will result of moving Polish nationalists organisations from Austro-Hungary into Poland....
During the WW 2 in case of Poland it will also be easy - Polish armed forces in the west (France, England etc) as a continuation of pre-war army should be put under the Polish "second republic" section. The Polish firefighters and "Blue Police" should be put under the separate state called "General Gouverment"(the nazist's name of occupied Polish territories). Polish army in USSR should be put under the Polish People's Republic .....

Regarding graphics - please contact me on my email z.rudzki@zep.pl

[Nila MadhaVa]

good ideas...cant wait to see the changes and updates complete

[orke]

Hello you all

Have you all no opinion to Zdzislaw suggestion :?:
It would intressant be which it of it thinks :!:

Many greetings, Orke

[Kedyw]

It would seem fine by me. Same with the Polish comment, and with say, Americans flying under Britain. It'll take some research for some of the more cryptic organizations, but it can happen.

[Peter]

Dear Forummembers,

I would collaborating organisations put under their nations flag under their own division. Pure Third Reich / Nazi German organisations with organizations in other occupied countries (if they have the same insignia as the Third Reich) I would put under Third Reich.
Yours sincerely,

Peter Meijlaers

[Gummy Bear]

Hi, I think a non-german nazi-organization still remains non-german, and therefore I'd put them under their respective country. I don't see the point in grouping all of them under the nazi flag. Nobody would think in grouping the former USSR and the the other allied forced under one common flag because they defended the same cause, would you.

[Artis]

Hi,
I suggest put them under flag which country established current unit. That means, during WWII Germany established number of legion divisions that drafted particular nationals, but had nothing common with country they (Germany) destroyed before. For example, there was no such country as Latvia or Estonia, just Ostland territories. Or French Foreign Legion. Try to count how many nationals served there... Let's put FFL insignias under almost every country of the world. Doesn't it sounds senceless?

[Artis]

Hi, I think a non-german nazi-organization still remains non-german, and therefore I'd put them under their respective country.

Hehh, if by 'nazi-organization' you mean NSDAP, no non-Germans were allowed to join them (so it is pure German establishment). If you mean Waffen-SS, that was created, armed and so on by Berlin, not by Oslo, Riga, Tallinn or Brussels... Guess, which flag they represented?

[Gummy Bear]

Well, the NSDAP surely was a german and austrian political party and organization, but the occupied and collaborating countries had their respective parties of their own. And even if they have send troups to the lines to serve under the flag of the Reich, they still were of their own nation and country. If someony came to show the italian ranks and uniforms of the Duce's area, nobody would dare posting them under the German III Reich flag. Same with the Vichy government in France, they were still french.
As to the countries which ceased to exist between 1933 and 1945 (Asutria, Czechoslovakia, Poland) I agree this is adifferent matter.

[dharma negara]

please proceed, buddies.
eagerly waiting. i wanna learn much about progress history of european countries' insignia.

[orke]

For you all!

You have many thoughts on Zdzislaw suggestion. Many opinions hit now naturally one on the other.

For gummy bear:
The NSDAP was a pure German party. Hitler was not times the number 1 in this party. It was only made by this party. The party was created in the early 20's. To "affiliation" of Austria and Sudetenland naturally many went these compatriots also into this party.

Nun Stefan nur für dich, der Unterschied liegt in Nichtdeutsche und nicht deutsche Verbände.
Nichtdeutsch sind z.B. viele Verbände der Waffen-SS ( albanische,niederländische,belgische,kroatische usw.),
nicht deutsche Verbände sind die kroatische Armee, die ungarische,rumänische,bulgarische usw.

Sei mir nicht böse,aber so würde ich das definieren. Das heißt für mich, die bulgarische Armee im 2.WK unter bulgarische Flagge , aber die Division Handschar (kroatisch) unter deutscher Flagge.


For Artis:
Also Latvian, Lithuanian and Estonian fought for the "Waffen SS". And also in other units. Humans in the Baltic states had probably also only the choice between Germany and the Soviet Union. Because independence was lost for these three states. Therefore I do not dare to judge itself also of the people. Fortunately is this all history.

Sad history!!!

,Orke

[Artis]

Nun Stefan nur für dich, der Unterschied liegt in Nichtdeutsche und nicht deutsche Verbände.
Nichtdeutsch sind z.B. viele Verbände der Waffen-SS ( albanische,niederländische,belgische,kroatische usw.),
nicht deutsche Verbände sind die kroatische Armee, die ungarische,rumänische,bulgarische usw.

Exactly, that is my point too.

For Artis:
Also Latvian, Lithuanian and Estonian fought for the "Waffen SS". And also in other units. Humans in the Baltic states had probably also only the choice between Germany and the Soviet Union. Because independence was lost for these three states. Therefore I do not dare to judge itself also of the people. Fortunately is this all history.

True, in Baltic case occupation means no country, no country means no flag.

There was Latvian sentry unit in US military, so called Viestura Sardzu rota (ENG - Viesturs Sentry Company) at the end of WWII (1947 - 1949)(mainly for guarding Nurnberg Court). I would not put them under Latvian flag, because they were under US Command, and had nothing with Latvia, except ethnicity.
BTW, Lithuanians did not fought in Waffen SS.

Artis

[orke]

:oops:
Hello Artis

With the Waffen SS I accept. Can be which I thereby was hasty. But I have uniform pictures of the "freiwilligen Flak aids".Those had aids from the three Baltic states.
We do not want to argue however. You are born in the country and must know it best. And my historical knowledge about the Baltic states I had to acquire myself after 1990. I had heard of your independence, but in historical instruction there was not this topic. I had seen the Baltic states of 1922-1937 in a uniform book of
Knoetel. But historically seen I could not give myself an answer. And in the GDR this topic was taboo.

But the world changes, constantly.
The Nuernberger Prosses is not to serve us as end of the WWII. We want to remain with 1945, victory over Germany and victory over Japan.

Still another question: Did you understand the German text at Stefan?

thank you for your post, Mario

[Artis]

With the Waffen SS I accept. Can be which I thereby was hasty. But I have uniform pictures of the "freiwilligen Flak aids".Those had aids from the three Baltic states.

Well, in the beginning Police battalions were organised, that drafted men from all three Baltic states. Later, after Waffen SS established, only Estonians an Latvians (from Baltics) fought on front lines. Additionally Luftwaffe Aids drafted for them.

The Nuernberger Prosses is not to serve us as end of the WWII. We want to remain with 1945, victory over Germany and victory over Japan.

Didn't caught the beef

Still another question: Did you understand the German text at Stefan?

Did you wrote in Ancient Egyptian? :D Sure, I did understood
Sorry everybody (especially dharma negara)for this off-topic :)

Artis

[orke]

Hello Artis

:) :evil: :) without words


I believe we am on the same level.


Best greetings, Mario :mrgreen:

[Kedyw]

Hey, hey, hey. Let's ALL be friends.

[orke]

Yes Cody, we are all friends.

Artis to know it was not badly meant.And I believe to know like it it mean.Always the same opinion are is boring.In addition had I mean question formulated wrong.

Stupidly run. :oops:


Sorry, Artis