Corporal Punishment

[Caim_Dubh]

Here's something I've wondered about. And excuse me if this has been addressed in another posting. What is the stance on corporal punishment in the various military forces around the world?

I know that officially the US Army doesn't allow corporal punishment--that is commencing the beat-down on a soldier who isn't living up to the standard or on a more legal note someone that has broken the law and receives the whip or the cane as judicial punishment. As I mentioned, the US Army doesn't officially allow corporal punishment, but local commanders have been known to look the other way when such things happen. :twisted:

[Chuck Anderson]

Hi Caim!
Chuck Anderson here!!

I can pretty well vouch that for the most part corporal punishment in the USAF seemed to take the form of extra duty, and took various forms such as being attached to the Civil Engineer Squadron's Roads and Grounds Unit for Base Litter Patrol, (where the hapless individual would spend anywhere from a day to a week fighting litterbugs.)
Other duties could include washing vehicles or even confinement to quarters, where one had the opportunity to be a janitor for the entire barracks.
I guess that you could maybe refer to the previously mentioned activities as a form of corporal punishment because, it's unwanted physical activities which can bring one aches and pains to one's body as easy as a "spanking" would.

Individuals would be assigned any of these activities, but they had to have had received at least a Letter of Reprimand or worse, an Article 15.

I hope this provides some useful information!

Chuck Anderson
USAFWO1_1975@military.com

[Manta]

the US is softer than it used to be... the last time I heard of a soldier being it was two years ago at Fort Bragg. A trainee pulled the pin on a live granade during practice BEFORE it was his turn and the instructor grabbed the granade and threw it on the range before any of the other recruits could have been hurt. The offender was prompty beaten by the SGT.

In Israel corporal punishment does not really exist.. but it's pretty common for MP's to be assaulted by soldiers to avaoid arrest or report.

[ChrisWI]

Do the MP's beat them back at least?

[Chuck Anderson]

Hi Caim!
Chuck Anderson here!!

Come to think of it, there is one area that I've heard where corporal punishment would take place and that was in Boot Camp. Specifically, I think the most likely places within Boot Camp would be in the Motivational Unit and in Correctional Custody, (reserved for real jerks who managed to really screw things up and get an Article 15--some after just a few days in the service.)

During Viet Nam I was a Security Policeman in my first year, and I had to do things like guard prisoners, but I never had to beat anybody or give any form of corporal punishment.

See ya'!

Chuck Anderson
USAFWO1_1975@military.com

[Manta]

Do the MP's beat them back at least?

well it's usually an MP versus a seasoned fighter.. so the MP usually gets knocked on his butt and the soldier escapes.

[ChrisWI]

I cant belive they take that abuse, lol, cant they shoot them (I think US MP's are allowed to use all means necessary to bring somebody in)?

[Erskine Calderon]

I cant belive they take that abuse, lol, cant they shoot them (I think US MP's are allowed to use all means necessary to bring somebody in)?

Yes, we were allowed to shoot anyone who offered deadly threat against us. However, no one ever did when I was in. It might have had something to do with the fact that we traveled in packs... ;)

Erskine

[Miklós Lovász]

Well, over here, officially beating up a soldier junior to you can take you to the gaol. Unofficially ... hm, there would be a slightly different situation (at least in Romania, though a lot less so in Hungary). There are usually one or two reports a year of soldiers beeing so mistreated by NCO's that they either shoot themselves or go AWOL. I believe, in the last 10 years there was only one instance of shooting one's superior officer.
As to MP's ... we never realy had that kind of Western "tradition" of brawling with them:-)))

[Zdzislaw Rudzki]

Well, here in Poland we have the conscript army. So always there are "old" and "young" soldiers. There is a kind of "tradition" of behaviour of the olds against the youngs. Everything can happen. Of course it is officially prohibited but the professionals go home at 22:00 and then the barracks belong to soldiers (well, except the officer on duty). When I served in the army in 1980 it was terrible, now it is even worse (as I hear). I was lucky I served as an "reserve officer candidate" (after university) so I stand beside this, but believe me for some "young" soldiers that was really a horror ............
Probably more or less similar situation was in all the Warsaw Pact armies.

[ChrisWI]

Its my understanding that Soviet style military forces did not have military police agencies, does Poland and Romania have MP's today?

[Zdzislaw Rudzki]

Hello Chris
There was a service called Wojskowa Sluzba Wewnetrzna (= Military Internal Service) during the communist era in Poland. This was more or less regular MP. They use standard army uniforms with white cap band on garrison cap and special metal insignia on the collar. While on duty (patrol) they use white Sam Brown type eqipment. When they use helmets there were standard army green helmets with big white WSW letters painted on a front. The navy branch of WSW use standard navy uniforms with the yellow words Wojskowa Sluzba Wewnetrzna on a cap band (instead of the ship name).
Now we have Zandarmeria (=Gendarmerie). They can be recognized by red berrets or red cap band.

[Manta]

I cant belive they take that abuse, lol, cant they shoot them (I think US MP's are allowed to use all means necessary to bring somebody in)?

Remember, Israeli soldiers carry their weapons with them at all times. Even on the bus ride home. While the MP MIGHT have a Sig or a 1911, the soldier he is trying to arrest for a uniform violation is carrying an M-4, or an AK-47, or maybe something more exotic. Micro-Uzis are ually used by Shabach and CT units.. but not often the type of weapon you seen soliders take home.

In Israel, the two biggest offenses that people face with MPs are uniform viloations and being drunk while assigned to the base. Technically you cannot wear Bets (our BDUs) out and around town. Most elite soldiers who have spent two months sleeping in mud and sand are to tired and unconcerned about going to the base, showering and changing in to uniform Aleph (A) before the trudge home.

Now there are increasingly more and more cases of insubordination.. and those guys do not escape jail. If need be, the IDF Force 100 (special military police unit) will ensure that the criminals get locked-up.

[Erwin]

Well in the Singapore Armed Forces, corporal punishments are not tolerated, reason been that we have a large number of conscript soliders.

Nowadays the soldiers are very well educated, they know what an officer or WOSE can or cannot do, in another words they know their own rights in the service.

Basically when I was a Sergeant during my active time, we had and still have (as reserve army) strict rules regarding punishment of soldiers, types of physical punishments, number of repetition, interval of times are all limited, you can imagine our "old timers" were not very pleased with it. We as Sergeants know that physical punishments can only do "so much", therefore we normally recommend extra duties or confinement. For my company's case, my Sergeant-Major normally would recommend to my OC DB (detention barracks) as punishment for soldiers.

Now in reserve army, we don't get many problem from soldiers, anyway one of my PC is a public prosecutor. Even my CO, who is also a reserve officer and a professional laywer listens to his suggestions

[Manta]

I thought corporal punishment was prevelent in Singapore.. heck you guys caned Michael Faye for being stupid.

[Erwin]

Yup no questions we did caned him (Michael Faye), but I've not heard of any recent cases of caning.

Caning is reserve for criminal who commited rape (personally I strongly believe they should cane rapist) and other serious crimes (some cases is the judge's discreet), anyway if it's too serious a crime they just hang you.

However in cases of the Armed Forces most punishments are for discipline problems, not serious enough for the cane, if it's a serious case most of the time it's civil cases and if the case is serious they might get caning sentences from the civilian court. If you get charge with treason in the Armed Forces, as far as I remember, it's death sentence (no one was ever charge with treason anyway).

[ChrisWI]

Dosent that treatment go against the UN Charter or some human rights thing (I wanna say Geneva Convention, but thats prisioners from other nations)?

[Miklós Lovász]

That depends, which international convention did Singapore sign. They obviously have not agreed to observe the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution:-)))

[Erwin]

In war time we will stick to the Geneva Convention, it's taught to all soldiers in Singapore.

Well for human rights...I guess it's your right to commit mistakes and if it's serious then it's our right to cane you 8) pretty simple.

Anyway this is a rank insignia forum, not some human rights forum, if anyone wants to further discuss it you're welcome to email me. :D

[Erskine Calderon]

That depends, which international convention did Singapore sign. They obviously have not agreed to observe the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution:-)))

I'm confused...

U.S. Constitution -Tenth Amendment:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

[Miklós Lovász]

Okay, sorry, I meant of course Ammendment 8th, which states:

"Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

which is the basis to prohibiting corporal punishment in the US.

[ChrisWI]

Chuck, I see you were a US Air Force Security Police officer in Vietnam, were you at Buker Hill #10 during the Tet Offensive?