Some issues about rank comparision

[Zdzislaw Rudzki]

Hi All
I am trying to prepare some rank charts for various services and countries and I have two questions (in general - in details it will be more)
1. How the English "brigadier" rank should be treated? Is it the highest rank of field grade officers (as the 3 stars/pips pattern suggest) or is it the lowest general rank (like French - General de brigade) ??
2. The question about police ranks. As I looked through Herrwiggly's drawings a lot of police force use the pattern which more or less follows the British one. Of course there are some variations like having two pips instead of three for the certain rank name etc. But .... There is also an American pattern presented here by Chris (whitch consist of some army-like insignia in various combinations). Those two can be compared more or less easy in a common rank chart. But there are some countries (ex. Poland, but also Bolivia or Argentina) where the police ranks follows the military rank system.
So please can anyone of you provide a cross-equivalent police rank system? Which police ranks in UK or US system can be treated as "company officers / field officers / general officers" I know that it can be difficult to understand my point for the people from countries where police was always a public service (with no relations to military), but believe me a lot of countries have police forces based on military-like organisation. In Poland even the proffessional fire brigade is based on military rank scheme and during communist era almost all uniformed services had ranks based on it. Similar situation you can see today in Rusian Federation which has a rank table for all services (see Michael K "gossluzhba" website). It has a long tradition in this part of Europe. It begun from the tsarist "tabel o rangah" which put civilian and military services in a single table of ranks (grades).
Waiting for any support
Z

[DvTonder]

The Brigadier rank has always been a difficult one to place. In South Africa, it used to be the highest field grade rank until, I believe, 2000 when it was converted to the rank of Brigadier General and became a 'General' rank.

My suggestion would be to depict it as Field Grade as that was its original and still current intent in the British system.

Just my 0.02c

[Herrwiggly]

Hi as you are no doubt aware, until 1918 we had a Brigadier general in the British Army, and at this time insignia was crossed sword and baton, it''s my understanding that during WW1, hte rank of Brigadier general was given to Colonels in command of a Brigade or those awaiting appointments to a higher rank. After WW1 we had so many Brigadier Generals, the word General was deleted and the term Brigadier used. For a short time the term Brigadier was deleted and the rank of Colonel Commandant was used but this was deemed to be quite arkward and the rank title of Brigadier was reinstated. The Brigadier still commands a brigade in the British Army today. I think today in the NATO rank tables a Brigadier is classed a 1 star General. No doubt if this is incorrect, someone will point this out. :D :D :D Cheers.

[jrichardn]

Hi, Zdzislaw: For what it's worth, I'm sure you know that NATO has done extensive work to show equivalencies among the ranks it member countries' armed forces - it's all in STANAG 2116, which you can find pretty easily on the Web.

Brigadier in the British Army is considered precisely equivalent to Brigadier General in the U.S. Army - both are considered OF-6. The British brigadier has to make do with only one row of gilt on his forage cap’s visor (if he still wears one), and with being considered a “senior” rather than “general” officer in his own army - but he ranks with the BGEN.

I will hazard a guess (which, as a guess, I probably shouldn’t post!) that it’s a bit of a fool’s errand trying to find the equivalence of police and military ranks in the English-speaking countries. The problem is at either end: no one thinks that a police constable is as lowly as an army private. :-) And at the top end, no one thinks that, for example, the Chief of Police at the University of California, Irvine (who wears four stars), is equivalent in rank to a full general in the U.S. Army.

Cheers, Richard Nelson

[Luke]

For Germany it’s easy to create a cross-equivalent police rank system by using the federal pay grade system (and some knowledge of the different career-paths); although it’s not as simple as a one-to-one equivalency in all cases.

As can be seen below, [glow=red]World Rank Insignia [/glow]has overvalued the senior police officers. BGS is chosen as an example. For instance, Leitender Direktor, Abteilungspräsident and Direktor im BGS, all rank as Colonel, although they have dissimilar BGS rank insignia.

A7
Polizeimeister
Feldwebel/Oberfeldwebel

A8
Polizeiobermeister
Hauptfeldwebel

A9
Polizeihauptmeister
Stabsfeldwebel/Oberstabsfeldwebel

A9
Polizeikommissar
Leutnant

A10
Polizeioberkommissar
Oberleutnant

A11/A12
Polizeihauptkommissar
Hauptmann

A13
Erster Polizeihauptkommissar
Stabshauptmann

A13
Rat
Major

A14
Oberrat
Oberstleutnant

A15
Direktor
Oberstleutnant

A16
Leitender Direktor
Oberst

B2
Abteilungspräsident im BGS
...

B3
Direktor im BGS
Oberst

B6
Präsident eines Grenzschutzpräsidiums
Brigadegeneral

B7
Inspekteur des Bundesgrenzschutzes
Generalmajor

Sources:
http://www.beamten-informationen.de/UNIQ111756983710656/doc1234A.html

http://www.tbb-konkret.de/bbesoa.pdf

Luke

[policier]

SOUTH AFRICA POLICE

Constable
Sergeant
Inspector
Captain
Superintendent
Senior Superintendent
Director
Assistant Commissioner
Provincial/Department Commissioner
Deputy National Commissioner
National Commissioner

GUARDA(IRISH REPUBLIC)

Guard
Sergeant
Inspector
Superintendent
Chief Superintendent
Assistant Commisioner
Deputy Commissioner
Commissioner

ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE

Constable
Corporal
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Sergeant Major
Staff Sergeant Major
Corps Sergeant Major
Inspector
Superintendent
Chief Superintendent
Assistant Commisssioner
Commissioner

POLICE SURETE DU QUEBEC

Agent
Sergent
Lieutenant
Capitaine
Inspecteur
Inspecteur Chef
Assistance Directeur General
Directeur General Ajoint
Directeur General


NEW YORK CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT

Officer
Sergeant
Lieutenant
Captain
Deputy Inspector
Inspector
Deputy Chief
Assistant Chief
Bureau Chief
Chief of Department

CHICAGO POLICE DEPARTMENT

Officer
Sergeant
Lieutenant
Captain
Commander
Deputy Chief
Chief
Deputy Superintendent
First Deputy Superintendent
Superintendent of Police

LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFF DEPARTMENT

Deputy Sheriff
Sergeant
Lieutenant
Captain
Commander
Bureau Chief
Assistant Sheriff
Under Sheriff
Sheriff

CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL

Officer
Sergeant
Lieutenant
Captain
Assistant Chief
Deputy Chief
Assistant Commissioner
Deputy Commissioner
Commissioner

MIAMI-DADE COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT

Officer
Sergeant
Lieutenant
Captain
Major
Commander
Bureau Commander
Assistant Director
Deputy Director
Director and Sheriff

PHILADELPHIA POLICE DEPARTMENT

Officer
Corporal
Sergeant
Lieutenant
Captain
Inspector
Chief Inspector
Deputy Commissioner
Commissioner

HONOLULU POLICE DEPARTMENT

Officer
Sergeant
Lieutenant
Captain
Major
Assistant Chief
Deputy Chief
Chief


POLICE NATIONALE (FRANCE)

Gardien
Brigadier
Brigadier Major

Lieutenant
Capitaine
Commandant

Commissaire
Commissaire Principal
Commissaire Divisionaire

Controleur General
Inspecteur General
Directeur General de la Police Nationale

Gendarmerie Nationale(France)

Gendarme
Caporal
Caporal Chef
Mareshal de Logis
Mareshal de Logis Chef
Adjudent
Adjudent Chef
Major

Sous-Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Capitaine
Chef de Esquadron
Lieutenant Colonel
Colonel
General de Brigade
General de Division(Directeur General Gendarmerie National)

[Guest]

Well the problem that you will run into in trying to make a police rank chart for english speaking countries is trying to base it off of a military system.

In the US for the most part police rank is based only on the position that you occupy in the deptment. However while someone may be a Sgt. and a shift commander, the men under him may be whats called a Master Officer, and have been on the police force for 20 years. In a great many departments you have to opt to take an exam to become a Sgt. and get the position. So many police rank structures are really just diffrent titles for positions in the department and don't nessacaraly carry the athority that they would in a military setting.

And I really don't know much of anything about the Brigader's place I'm as confused as everyone else.

[Luke]

Cross-equivalent police rank system UK

For the UK it’s difficult to create a cross-equivalent police rank system. Yet I have tried by using the pay scales of the army and the police. As can be seen, there is not always a one-to-one equivalency between police ranks and army ranks. In fact, there is a substantial overlap between NCO and Officer ranks, reflecting the army pay system.


UK Police Rank NATO CODE UK Army Ranks
Constable OR-3 -- OR-6/OF-1 Lance Corporal -- Sergeant/Second Lieutenant – Lieutenant
Sergeant OR-7—OR-8/OF-2 Staff Sergeant – WO2/Captain
Inspector OR-9/OF-2 WO1/Captain
Chief Inspector OF-3 Major
Superintendent OF-4 Lieutenant Colonel
Chief Superintendent OF-5 Colonel
Assistant Chief Constable OF-6 Brigadier
Deputy Chief Constable OF-7 Major General
Chief Constable OF-8 Lieutenant General

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002417.htm

http://www.policereform.gov.uk/docs/heads_agreement.pdf

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0104.html

http://www.lg-employers.gov.uk/conditions/police/circulars.html

Equivalency in senior ranks are based on pay information in Whitaker's Almanac.

[Zdzislaw Rudzki]

So is it more or less OK to treat inspectors as equivalent to company grade officers, intendents - to field grade and chiefs - to generals (this is also suggested by the insignia pattern - stars / crown+stars / laurel with batons + crown (stars) etc)?

[Luke]

A company-grade officers is a commissioned officer having the rank of second lieutenant, first lieutenant, or captain, therefore I do not believe that it is OK to treat inspectors as equivalent to company grade officers.

If I simplify:
Constables = Subalterns
Sergeants and Inspectors = Captains
Chief Inspectors--Chief Superintendents = Field Grade Officers
Chief Officers = General Officers

[Luke]

Cross-equivalent police rank system Norway

Norway has a pay grade system, there are, however some complications when trying to create a cross-equivalent police rank system. (a) The Norwegian army has a one career-path system, while the Norwegian police have a two career-path system. (b) There is not a neat correspondence between army rank and pay and police rank and pay (as in the German system). (c) There is not one pay grade for each rank, but a span of pay grades for each rank.

See: http://www.lostat.no/tariffstat/lonna_di/okt04_lonnsplaner.doc

In addition, the [glow=red]World Rank Insignia [/glow] version of the Norwegian police ranks are not up to date. See:
http://www.pdmt.politiet.no/publikasjoner/reglement/politi/604104_police_rank_and_insignia_table/604104.htm

This is the raw data
Army
Sersjant – Kaptein 33-37
Major 44-66
Oberstlřytnant 48-70
Oberst 53-75
Brigader 56-80
Generalmajor 62-84
Generallřytnant 66-86

Police
Politibetjent 1 40-41
Poltiibetjent 2 42
Politibetjent 3 43
Politifřrstebetjent 44-55
Politioverbetjent 49-64
PolitistasjonssjefLensmann 55-70

Politifullmektig 40-59
Politiadvokat 50-71
Politiinspektřr 51-71
Visepolitimester 63-83
Politimester 65-83
Assisterende politidirektřr ?
Politidirektřr ?

Cross-equivalent police rank system Norway
Politibetjent 1-3 = Kaptein
Politifřrstebetjent = Major
Politioverbetjent = Major
Politistasjonssjef = Oberstlřytnant

Politifullmektig = Major
Politiadvokat = Oberstlřytnant, Oberst
Politiinspektřr = Oberstlřytnant, Oberst
Visepolitimester = Brigader
Politimester = Brigader
Assisterende politidirektřr = Generalmajor
Politidirektřr = Generallřytnant

[valtrex]

GREECE
[img]http://www.mopo.gr/main/images/photos/photo14609_Engl.jpg[/img]

[Policier]

[font=Times New Roman] [/font

So many members on here delude themselves by inventing rank equivelents between police and military which do not exist in factual reality. A case in point is the deluded individual who equated a Police Constable with a Army lance Corporal.

Please find below actual reality equivelents in rank between British Police,Armed Forces and Civil Service.

This as existed for around 4 to 5 decades. Civil service grades above Senior Principal have also now changed considerably as civil service departments became autonomous business type agencies of government and developed new grades and pay structures.

Note also that even though grades are classified as equivilent for government convienience and management and liasion purposes there can be as much as a dozen thousand pounds difference in the maximum of their respective salaries.


POLICE ARMY CIVIL SERVICE]

Constable 2nd Lt/Lt Admin Officer
Sergeant Captain Executive Officer
Inspector Major HEO
Chief Inspector Lt Col SEO
Superintendent Colonel Principal
Chief Superintendent Brigadier Senior Principal
ACC (Commander) Major General Assistant Secretary
DCC(DAC-AC) Lieutenant General Under Secretary
Chief Constable(C) General Deputy Secretary
Deputy Commissioner
Commissioner Field Marshal Permenant Sec

There is some confusion about certain chief police officer ranks in the U.K.
London is Policed by 2 seperate police forces,they being the Metropolitan Police and City of London Police respectively. The rank of Commander in both forces equates to Assistant Chief Constable. The rank of Deputy Assistant Commissioner in the Metropolitan Police equates to Assistant Commissioner in the City of London Police and Deputy Chief Constable in provincial forces. The City of London Police Commissioner equates to a Chief Constable. The Deputy Commissioner and Commissioner of the metropolitan Police are higher ranks than Chief Constable but they have no command responsibilities over Chief Constables,each force is autonomous.

Now concerning pay a Civil Service Administrative Officer earns 15 grand less than a Constable and a Constable earns as much as a junior Army Captain.

Police sergeants earn roughly the same as a senior Army Captain and about the same as a Senior Executive Officer.

Police Inspector and Chief Inspector earn pay that covers the rank of Army Major and the Civil Service grade of Principal.

Police Superintendent and Chief Superintendent pay that broadly equates to the Army Lieutenant Colonel and Colonel. and Civil service Assistant Secretary grade

Assistant Chief Constables and above have pay relating to population bands that ranges from The broad pay equivelent of Brigadier through to Field Marshal or Civil Service Under secretary and above.

Interestingly the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolitan Police who commands 28.000 0fficers plus civil staff earns 240 grand a year but the chief of defence staff(field marshal equivelent only earns 205.000 and commands 200.000. Permenant Secretaries of state who are the highest civil service grade aso have wide variations in pay the lowest earning 105.000 the highest 250.000

This information can be obtained from the website of the office of manpower economics who publish the various annual pay review body and police negotiating body reports. The civil service yearbook also lists the military and civil service equivelents. Many civil service human resource departments contain documents that give the various equivelents including police ranks.

The other rank structure pay overlapse the junior officer pay scales. A private soldier can arn as much as a junior constable or the top scale of a civil service Executive Officer. A corporal as much as a middle pay scale constable and Civil service HEO. A sergeant as much as the top pay scale constable and a Civil service HEO. a staff sergeant as much as a police Sergeant or civil service SEO, A warrant officer class 2 and warrant officer class 1 as much as a Police Inspector but less than a civil service Principal and as much as a Senior Army Captain.

So in terms of pay but not rank eqatation equivelents the Other Rank/Rating structure of the service Police,RMP,RAFP,Regulating Specialisation equate in pay terms at least to that of the police ranks from Constable to Inspector but they are junior in every respect to those ranks.

[Policier]

In the U.K. There exists a police force called the Ministry of Defence Police. This came into being during the early 1970s on the ammulgamation of three seperate forces. It is one of only three police forces where all ranks from Constable to Chief Constable or routinely armed. It is a civil police force and not a service police force. It is tasked with policing large military depots,naval dockyards and air bases. They police the civil service and civil contract staff working on such bases. They work with the service police and other civil police forces. There durisdiction was increased substantially over the last 15 years. Pay was once slightly lower than other forces but nowadays is exactly the same. They are classed as civil servants in addition to police constables and enjoy the benefits and priviliges of both.(In the U.K. the civil service is like the federal service in the USA and not local government)

All ranks equate to their miliary commissioned officer and civil service grade equivelents and are higher than the following police ranks within the Armed services. Being civil servants there annual leave entitlement is also higher than the police service generally and they get up to 35 days plus 10.5 public holidays. Police constables elsewhere get 30 tops after decades of service. the 35 days is achieved after only 10 years service in the MOD POLICE.

Lance Corporal RMP
lac/sac(acting Corporal) RAFP

Corporal RMP/RAFP
Leading Regulator RN

Sergeant RMP/RAFP
Regulating Petty Officer RN

Staff Sergeant RMP
Flight Sergeant RAFP(Paid as WO2 Army)
Master at Arms RN(Paid as WO2 Army)

Warrant Officer class 2 RMP

Warrant Officer class 1 RMP
Warrant Officer RAFP
Warrant Officer Master at Arms RN

RAF POLICE and RN REGULATORS perform certain duties that the RMP dont,such as customs officer,immigration officer at two RAF transit Airbases and also Counter Intelligence. Regulators also do Fisheries Protection Officer, and have aditional qualifications in several shipboard occupations in addition to their service police role,these include being bosun and helmsman and more besides.

The above ranks are all junior to all Civil Police Constables and above though pay scales are comparable to Constable trough to Inspector.

[CoppersNark]

Good day!

Some of you have bewen puzzled by the rank of Brigadier and where it sits amongst police heirarchies.

A number of nations use this rank and its seniority varies from nation to nation.

The South Africa Police used this rank before its rank structure was reorganised. It lay between the ranks of Colonel and Major General.

The Spanish Guardia Civil, French Police National, and certain Italian National Police forces use this rank today.

Spain call it Brigata. It is a warrant officer rank. France call it Brigadier and it is a warrant officer rank equivelent to the frence army Adudent. The Italians call it Brigadiere and it equates to Sergeant rank.

[Interpretrix]

I recently saw a chart on either this or some other website. It was professionally done though widely inaccurate and showed the wrong rank equivelents and even wrong rank insignia for Police ranks.

There exists a table that is issued to civil service,police and the armed forces. It gives rank equivelents. These equivelents may earn widely different salaries and have widely different responsibilities.

The Police ranks of Constable and Sergeant or not none commissioned ranks but are actual officer ranks. The British Police do not have any enlisted rank structure.

Civil Service Police Service Armed Forces

Administrative Assistant

Administrative Officer Constable Mishipman
Second Lieutenant
Pilot Officer

Administrative Officer Constable Sub Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Flying Officer

Executive Officer Sergeant Lieutenant
Captain
Flight Lieutenant

Higher Executive Ofcr Inspector Lieutenant-Commander
Major
Squadron Leader

Senior Execitive Ofcr Chief Inspector Commander
Lieutenant Colonel
Wing Commander

Grade 7(Principal) Superintendent Captain
Colonel
Group Captain

Grade 6( Senior Principal) Chief Supt Commadore
Brigadier
Air Commadore

Senior Civil Service 1-3 Asst Ch Ctl/Cdr Rear Admiral
(Assistant Secretary) Major General
Air Vice Marshal

Senior Civil Service 4-5 Dep Ch Ctl/DAC Vice Admiral
(Under Secretary) / Cmr(city of Lnd) Lieutenant General
Air Marshal

Senior Civil Service 6-7 Chief Constable/ Admiral
(Deputy Secretary) Asst Cmr General
Dep Cmr(Met) ACM

Senior Civil Service 8-9 Commissioner AF/FM/MRAF
( Permenant Secretary)

[Eugen Pinak]

I don't understand the problem - why don't you use STANAG? It's probably the most detailed rank comparation chart in the world.

[jrichardn]

Can't speak for Interpretix (or indeed anyone else) but the question this wandering thread has tried to address was how to equivalence ranks not covered by the NATO equivalencies - particularly police ranks.

Cheers, Richard Nelson
Toronto

[Necrothesp]

Now concerning pay a Civil Service Administrative Officer earns 15 grand less than a Constable and a Constable earns as much as a junior Army Captain.

Police sergeants earn roughly the same as a senior Army Captain and about the same as a Senior Executive Officer.

In most police forces, a constable actually earns almost exactly the same range as a 2nd lieutenant/lieutenant (Ł20-30,000) and a sergeant the same range as a captain (Ł30-40,000), depending on length of service.