Can someone confirm whether the 'Praporcik' ranks in the Czech Army correspond with the 'Praporcik' ranks in the Slovak Army.
My understanding is that in the Czech Army, the Praporcik ranks are senior enlisted OR8 and OR9s - the senior rank being that of 'stabni praporcik'
However I'm not sure about the Slovak Army. I think the senior enlisted OR9 rank is now 'stabny nadrotmajster'.
So what is the status of the 'Praporcik' ranks in the Slovak Army? Do they have officer or enlisted status?
The link to the Slovak Ranks is here:
http://www.mosr.sk/index.php?page=103
"Praporcik"
The closest translation of "Praporcik" is Ensign, "Porucik" is Lieutenant, "Plukovnik" is Colonel. "Pod-" is Sub- and "Nad-" is Over-. "Stabny Nadrotmajster" would be Senior OverTroopMaster.
Retired banker turned motor mag writer. Published book 'Police Forces of the World' in 2006: histories, ranks, insignia of 220 police agencies in 67 countries.
"Praporcik"
Sorry, "Staff" is correct. "Troop" I based on police basic rank of "Rotny" - Trooper.
Retired banker turned motor mag writer. Published book 'Police Forces of the World' in 2006: histories, ranks, insignia of 220 police agencies in 67 countries.
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lordziba
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Hi, here I have to little disagree. Ok, I have no clue about exact Slovak, but since it similar to Ukranian/Russian, so in my mind, word “Rotny” definitely not a “trooper.” This word had to with army/militia organization rather personal rank. For instance, Russian system goes: Otdelenie – Section, Vzvod – Platoon, Rota – Company, Batalion – Battalion, Polk – Regiment, Brigada – Brigade, Divizia – Division, and so forth.
I hope this makes clear, note though Militia meaning Police not armed militmen.
Zibster
!
I hope this makes clear, note though Militia meaning Police not armed militmen.
Zibster
!"Praporcik"
Czech Republik Poice ("Policie Ceske Republiky") definitely use "Rotny" as their base rank and Trooper is the only translation that makes sense.
Retired banker turned motor mag writer. Published book 'Police Forces of the World' in 2006: histories, ranks, insignia of 220 police agencies in 67 countries.
"Praporcik"
Fair enough, but Company is an infantry term equal to Troop which is a cavalry term.
Retired banker turned motor mag writer. Published book 'Police Forces of the World' in 2006: histories, ranks, insignia of 220 police agencies in 67 countries.
"Praporcik"
Agreed!
Bill
Bill
Retired banker turned motor mag writer. Published book 'Police Forces of the World' in 2006: histories, ranks, insignia of 220 police agencies in 67 countries.
Interesting though that although the Czechs and Slovaks still use the same rank titles, they now have different functions:
The Czech 'Praporcik' has been developed into the 'Sergeant Major' equivalent - like the British Warrant Officer
The Slovak ' Praporcik' is now a technical officer rank - like the American Warrant Officer.
The Czech 'Praporcik' has been developed into the 'Sergeant Major' equivalent - like the British Warrant Officer
The Slovak ' Praporcik' is now a technical officer rank - like the American Warrant Officer.
"Praporcik"
I suggested early in this discussion that the closest English equivalent is "Ensign", but perhaps "Aspirant" as used in several other languages (e.g. Polish) might be more appropriate.
Bill
Bill
Retired banker turned motor mag writer. Published book 'Police Forces of the World' in 2006: histories, ranks, insignia of 220 police agencies in 67 countries.
Podpraporik
Ranks are WO class.
Take the Air Force, there's three grades WO rank.
Since it depends on the stucture of the Armed Forces in question, you could continue this question until the cows come home.
Would you have three grades of Ensign? [Podpraporcik, Praporcik and Nadpraporcik] I dont think so, but hey 'I know nothing' .
Warrant rank could have Officer status one year, and not the next (look at the Royal Navy).
I don't know if the rank has officer status, I believe though it's a Warrant Officer.
Ensign's and Aspirant's are officers in training, something like a Midshipman, and take up junior officer status ranking in general with Senior NCO's and Warrant Officers, Officers in limbo.
I'm sure I'll be put in my place.
Take the Air Force, there's three grades WO rank.
Since it depends on the stucture of the Armed Forces in question, you could continue this question until the cows come home.
Would you have three grades of Ensign? [Podpraporcik, Praporcik and Nadpraporcik] I dont think so, but hey 'I know nothing' .
Warrant rank could have Officer status one year, and not the next (look at the Royal Navy).
I don't know if the rank has officer status, I believe though it's a Warrant Officer.
Ensign's and Aspirant's are officers in training, something like a Midshipman, and take up junior officer status ranking in general with Senior NCO's and Warrant Officers, Officers in limbo.
I'm sure I'll be put in my place.
Fear is the best weapon
Praporcik
Footnote
Could we be getting confused between Praporcik - Warrant Officer and Podporucik - No British or American equivalent?
Podporucik is an very junior Officer rank, that could be said to be on par with Ensign/Aspirant and Midshipman.
No longer a cadet but not a fully fledged Officer, Officer on probation maybe?
Ensign would be more approprate equivalent in this case I believe.
Aspirant was 'Officer in the making' ranking with senior NCO's and was often a title given to Senior NCO's training to be officers in the old Austrian Empire.
Ensign has always been a junior officer rank, for example, senior NCO's training to be officers were never given the rank of Ensign.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Any one wishing for pics of Czech Army/Air force uniforms, aviation and rank badges I'll try to oblige
Could we be getting confused between Praporcik - Warrant Officer and Podporucik - No British or American equivalent?
Podporucik is an very junior Officer rank, that could be said to be on par with Ensign/Aspirant and Midshipman.
No longer a cadet but not a fully fledged Officer, Officer on probation maybe?
Ensign would be more approprate equivalent in this case I believe.
Aspirant was 'Officer in the making' ranking with senior NCO's and was often a title given to Senior NCO's training to be officers in the old Austrian Empire.
Ensign has always been a junior officer rank, for example, senior NCO's training to be officers were never given the rank of Ensign.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Any one wishing for pics of Czech Army/Air force uniforms, aviation and rank badges I'll try to oblige
Fear is the best weapon
"Praporcik"
Boy, this is becoming complicated! The Czech Republic Police have Nadporucik, Porucik, Podporucik, Nadpraporcik, Praporcik, Podpraporcik. Porucik is regarded as Lieutenant. Insignia are, in order: 3 medium 8-pointed stars, 2 medium 8-pointed stars, 1 medium 8-pointed star, 3 small 8-pointed stars over a horizontal bar, 2 small 8-pointed stars over a horizontal bar, 1 small 8-pointed star above a bar. A note I have from a serving officer re Praporcik says "These are a little higher than sergeant." Their "Sergeant" is Nadstrazmistr = Over-Watchmaster - 3 small 8-pointed stars.
"Command Sergeant-Major" sounds good, but doesn't quite cut it in terms of literal translation. The trouble with most translations is that the translator generally thinks only in terms of what is roughly equivalent in the other language - I found this throughout my researches into police ranks internationally. They don't translate literally.
Aspirant may sound a bit weak, but seems to be the only term in general use that fits the bill. The whole issue of "Warrant Officer" grades' position - whether commissioned or non-commissioned - appears somewhat ambivalent. The Royal Marines once had Commissioned Warrant Officers instead of Lieutenants. Warrant Officers, RN and RM, are senior to army Warrant Officers and Midshipmen are junior to them.
Bill
"Command Sergeant-Major" sounds good, but doesn't quite cut it in terms of literal translation. The trouble with most translations is that the translator generally thinks only in terms of what is roughly equivalent in the other language - I found this throughout my researches into police ranks internationally. They don't translate literally.
Aspirant may sound a bit weak, but seems to be the only term in general use that fits the bill. The whole issue of "Warrant Officer" grades' position - whether commissioned or non-commissioned - appears somewhat ambivalent. The Royal Marines once had Commissioned Warrant Officers instead of Lieutenants. Warrant Officers, RN and RM, are senior to army Warrant Officers and Midshipmen are junior to them.
Bill
Retired banker turned motor mag writer. Published book 'Police Forces of the World' in 2006: histories, ranks, insignia of 220 police agencies in 67 countries.
In the absence of directly translatable terminology, I think you have to look at the function of the personnel to translate their rank.
Stabni Praporcik Ludek Kolesa holds the position of Senior Enlisted Adviser at NATO's Allied Trasformation Command in Norfolk USA and was formerly the Czech Army's senior adviser below Officer Rank. Therefore it would be safe to translate his rank as Master Warrant Officer 4 (as on the Czech Ministry of Defence webite) and his position as Command Sergeant Major (even though his rank insignia is 4 silver stars!)
http://www.act.nato.int/multimedia/bios/kolesa.htm
Stabni Praporcik Ludek Kolesa holds the position of Senior Enlisted Adviser at NATO's Allied Trasformation Command in Norfolk USA and was formerly the Czech Army's senior adviser below Officer Rank. Therefore it would be safe to translate his rank as Master Warrant Officer 4 (as on the Czech Ministry of Defence webite) and his position as Command Sergeant Major (even though his rank insignia is 4 silver stars!)
http://www.act.nato.int/multimedia/bios/kolesa.htm
WO Rank
Best answer so far.
On appointment to certain commands the title may change [along with the responsibility] but most Governments are very adapt at keeping the pay grade the same [acting unpade used to be very common in the British armed forces].
Like I've said the rank is that of a Warrant Officer.
You carn't realy compare commisioned warrant and non-commissioned warrant between countries.
A nation that doesn't have the manpower to justify commissioned warrant status, would use the most senior WO rank with an add-on title to show his position.
Will someone please go and see if one of them is proping up the bar in the officer's mess, if he is, we may be able to put this to bed [along with the drunk at the bar]
Command, Senior Command or Master Warrant Officer all sound good to me!
Do we all agree?
On appointment to certain commands the title may change [along with the responsibility] but most Governments are very adapt at keeping the pay grade the same [acting unpade used to be very common in the British armed forces].
Like I've said the rank is that of a Warrant Officer.
You carn't realy compare commisioned warrant and non-commissioned warrant between countries.
A nation that doesn't have the manpower to justify commissioned warrant status, would use the most senior WO rank with an add-on title to show his position.
Will someone please go and see if one of them is proping up the bar in the officer's mess, if he is, we may be able to put this to bed [along with the drunk at the bar]
Command, Senior Command or Master Warrant Officer all sound good to me!
Do we all agree?
Fear is the best weapon
"Praporcik"
I don't disagree with any of that. It would make translation a lot easier if every country had a similar system, of course, but until we have a universal language (Mandarin-English or Hindi-Spanish?) it ain't gonna happen. In the meantime us writers will just have to struggle along with the best perceived alternative for the circumstances.
Bill
Bill
Retired banker turned motor mag writer. Published book 'Police Forces of the World' in 2006: histories, ranks, insignia of 220 police agencies in 67 countries.
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Pavel Simandl
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PRAPORCIK - PORUCIK
CZECHOSLOVAKIA( CZECHIA )
1920-2005 ( CONSCRIPTION ERA ):
PODPORUCIK ( SECOND LIEUTENANT ) = PRINCIPLE RANKS FOR RESERVED OFFICERS ( LEAVERS OF SHOOL FOR RESERVED OFFICERS ).
PORUCIK ( LIEUTENANT ) = LOW RANKS FOR REGULAR OFFICERS ( GRADUATE MILITARY ACADEME )
PRAPORCIK = WARRANT OFFICER ( RANKS FOR REGULAR SOLDIER )
( Since 2005 = Professional Army )
1920-2005 ( CONSCRIPTION ERA ):
PODPORUCIK ( SECOND LIEUTENANT ) = PRINCIPLE RANKS FOR RESERVED OFFICERS ( LEAVERS OF SHOOL FOR RESERVED OFFICERS ).
PORUCIK ( LIEUTENANT ) = LOW RANKS FOR REGULAR OFFICERS ( GRADUATE MILITARY ACADEME )
PRAPORCIK = WARRANT OFFICER ( RANKS FOR REGULAR SOLDIER )
( Since 2005 = Professional Army )
Pavel SIMANDL
"Praporcik"
Thank you, Pavel, for joining in with a Czech perspective! As something of a linguist, though, please tell me - if you break down the word "praporcik" into its syllables "pra", "por" and "cik" what does each bit mean separately before being combined into one whole word? Does "pra", for instance, mean "pre-" or "first" or "great" as it does in Russian? In Russian I believe "chik" means "rank" or "officer", so I could be shooting my earlier arguments in the foot if the Czech meaning is the same! The Russian "por" has a myriad possibilities, mainly connected with time.
Bill
Bill
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Zdzislaw Rudzki
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As far as I understand Czech (which is quite similar to Polish) the word "praporchik" can't be split into individual sillabes with certain meaning. It is derived from the word (I don't know exact Czech spelling) meaning the flag. Like Polish "chorazy" is derived from "choragiew" (big flag or standard used on a battlefield to denote the commading post). Both Czech and Polish rank names mean literally "standard bearer" = the man taking care of the flag on battlefield. Anyway - this is just a historical background of the rank title, but could be useful ;)
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Erskine Calderon
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Equivalent to ensign?Zdzislaw Rudzki wrote:As far as I understand Czech (which is quite similar to Polish) the word "praporchik" can't be split into individual sillabes with certain meaning. It is derived from the word (I don't know exact Czech spelling) meaning the flag. Like Polish "chorazy" is derived from "choragiew" (big flag or standard used on a battlefield to denote the commading post). Both Czech and Polish rank names mean literally "standard bearer" = the man taking care of the flag on battlefield. Anyway - this is just a historical background of the rank title, but could be useful ;)
"As the junior officer in an infantry regiment was traditionally the carrier of the ensign flag, the rank itself acquired the name." - Wikipedia
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