NCO and Warrant ranks

[60bill]

I think you are getting confused between RM and RN.
Officers in the Royal Marines come under the army list and ranking system.
No warrant rank in the British Army has held Commissioned Officer statis [Conductor highest grade].
Unlike the Royal Navy, the like of Engineers and Chief Carpenter's were firstly given warrant rank, later been given Commission statis [ it was thought that anyone who worked for a living couldn't possibly be of Officer class].
In 1949 the warrant officer became Branch Officer, the commissioned warrant officer becoming a senior commissioned officer and the warrant officer a commissioned officer.
In 1957 these officers became special duty officers. The senior commissioned officer became a lieutenant and the commissioned officer a sub-lieutenant.
The warrant officers were first granted higher rank in 1865 with the title of Chief etc.
Midshipmen were classed as Subordinate Officers along with Naval Cadets and Clerks
As for Aspirant, the term in Europe implied a soldier or senior NCO training to be an officer.
In general warrant officers commissiond or not, are not training to be officers, so I don't think the term Aspiant fits at all for these ranks.
Also to compare police and fire dept. ranks to military ranks is bound to confuse the issue. How many small town fire and police chiefs walk around with four stars on the shoulder, while commanding a dozen staff.
If the ranks don't translate, keep the original name and go by the style of the uniform and insignia to classify statis.
Other than that, if he's proped up on the bar of the officers mess, chances are he's rated an officer [Aspirant not withstanding].
Sorry about the long reply

[BillW41]

No, I'm not confusing RN with RM but admit, on checking back on my history books, that RM Commissioned Officers (2 grades) which replaced Lieutenant and 2nd Lieutenant for a time weren't Warrant Officers, and I apologise for that. However, the relationship between Warrant Officers, RN, RM and Army, and Midshipmen was quoted directly from my RAF pocketbook which clearly outlines the seniority relativity between each and, yes, senior (British) non-commissioned army ranks are Conductor, RAOC, Master-Gunner 1st class, RA, and 1st class Staff Sergeant-Major - all of which are equivalent but junior to Warrant Officers, RN and RM, and equivalent but senior to Midshipmen. Air Force and other Army Warrant Officers, class 1 and 2, slot in below these. You say RM follow army lists, but what about Captain-General and Colonel-Commandant, neither of which appear in army rankings?

To complicate the issue further, Russian MVD Justice Militia (investigative police) have a rank of Praporshchik which the Oxford Russian dictionary translates as "Ensign". Literally it appears to mean "Pre-officer" (Aspirant?) and is equivalent to Lieutenant in the general Militia or Inspector of the Justice Militia, senior to Junior Lieutenant or Junior Inspector. Rank insignia consists of two small stars (one above the other) while a Militia Lieutenant wears two stars (side by side).

I also draw attention to the Italian Guardia di Finanza and Carabinieri where the rank of "Marshal" is usually translated as Warrant Officer - clearly an inaccurate rendition.

Bill

[60bill]

I didn't disagree the seniority of WO and Midshipman, just wanted to give a little more info regarding naval warrant rank.

Most books tend to overlook the rank of Col Commandant, maybe because of the short period it was in use.
Captain General because is really an appointment, rather than official rank. The Duke of Edinburgh is the present Captain General Royal Marines.

In 1920 the rank of brigadier-general was abolished, the new ranks of colonel-commandant and colonel of the staff were introduced with a crown over three stars. The rank of brigadier replaced both ranks in 1928 retaining the crown and stars.
The rank of Captain General goes back to 1661 when George Monk, Duke of Ablemarle was appointed the first Captain General of the Honourable Artillery Company.
George VI continued to use the title and extended the title to other formations [Royal Marines November 1948]

I hope this helps,

[Luke]

"No, I'm not confusing RN with RM but admit, on checking back on my history books, that RM Commissioned Officers (2 grades) which replaced Lieutenant and 2nd Lieutenant for a time weren't Warrant Officers, and I apologise for that."

In fact there were Royal Marine Warrant Officers

"The development of the warrant officer ranks in the Royal Marines closely paralleled those in the Royal Navy. As in the RN, by the Second World War there were Warrant Officers and Commissioned Warrant Officers, e.g. Staff Sergeant Majors, Commissioned Staff Sergeant Majors, Royal Marines Gunners, Commissioned Royal Marines Gunners, etc. As officers they were saluted by junior ranks in the Royal Marines and the Army. These all became (commissioned) Branch officer ranks in 1949, and Special Duties officer ranks in 1956."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_Officer#Three_categories_of_WOs

[BillW41]

Okay, got all that. You wouldn't by any chance be a former Royal Marine?

Bill

[60bill]

Sorry Luke your'e wrong.
All Royal Marine ranks follows the army.
Wardroom status was given to certain navy warrant rank but never to the RM's.
Dont believe everything you see on WIKIPEDIA.
Warrant Officer I is the highest warrant rank in the British Forces, it's a warrant rank not a commissioned rank.
You Have: WOI, WOII, Colour Sgt, Sgt, Cpl, L/Cpl as per the Army.
Were on earth did Commissioned Staff Sergeant Majors, Commissioned Royal Marines Gunners come from? Show me the paragraph in Queen's Regulations and I'll admit defeat.
We didn't have those ranks when I served! you would never get anyone in the British Army saluting an RSM [WO1], if you did, he would boil your right testicle.
Again, the Royal Navy has commissioned warrant officers but the other services don't.
In the British Army if a WO gets commission he becomes a lieutenant.
The bit about Branch officer and Special Duties officer ranks only applied to the navy, as I have already mentioned.

[Luke]

I know that you can't trust everything in Wikipedia, but I also do not believe that you served before 1949. You cannot take today’s RM and compare with what was around WW II. Read the following from the London Gazette, and I think you have to admit defeat.

/Luke

"1949 11 01
Warrant Officers - Revised Titles
At the Court at Buckingham Palace, the 28th day of October, 1949.

Whereas there was this day read ad the Board a Memorial from the Right Honourable the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty, dated the 17th day of October, 1949, (C.W. 3524/49) in the words following, viz.:-

Whereas by Order in Council dated the twenty-second day of January, 1920, Schedule B, the titles of certain Warrant Officers and Officers promoted from Warrant rank were revised:

And whereas from time to time certain other alterations to Warrant Officer titles have been provided for by various subsequent Orders in Council:

And whereas we are of the opinion that the title ‘Warrant Officer' and the term ‘Warrant List' in use in the Royal Navy and Royal Marines should no longer be used but be replaced by 'Branch Officer' and `Branch List' respectively:

- - -

We beg leave humbly to recommend that Your Majesty may be graciously pleased by Your Order in Council to sanction the proposals contained in the Schedule annexed hereto with effect from the 5th day of April, 1949, in substitution for the provision previously authorised, which changes involve the appointment by commission of those Warrant Officers hitherto appointed by warrant but otherwise no. change in rates of pay, uniform, or duties.

The Lords Commissioners of Your Majesty's Treasury have signified their concurrence in these proposals.

Schedule.

Titles of Warrant Officers and Officers Promoted from Warrant Rank.

The term ‘Warrant List' to be abolished and to be known in future as the ‘Branch List'; the generic title for officers on this list to be 'Branch Officers' All officers on the Branch List to be appointed by commission. Their rates of pay to be as laid down for corresponding Warrant Officers (Naval and Royal Marine) and officers promoted therefrom in Order in Council dated 27th April, 1948.

2. The titles of Officers on the Branch List to be as in the right hand column following:

Old Title on the Warrant List New Title on the Branch List

- - -

Staff Sergeant-Major, Superintending Clerk >> Commissioned Sergeant-Major
Commissioned Staff Sergeant-Major, Commissioned Superintending Clerk >> Senior Commissioned Sergeant-Major
R.M. Gunner >> Commissioned R.M. Gunner
Commissioned R.M. Gunner >> Senior Commissioned R M. Gunner
Master Tailor >> Commissioned Master Tailor
Commissioned Master Tailor >> Senior Commissioned Master Tailor
Bandmaster (W.O.) R.M. Band >> Commissioned Bandmaster
Commissioned Bandmaster R.M. Band >> Senior Commissioned Bandmaster
Warrant Recruiter R.M. >> Commissioned Recruiter R. M.


Source: http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/LondonGazette/WO_Reviewed.html

[sketor7558]

http://www.royalmarinesmuseum.co.uk/Marines%20Unforms.pdf

[Miklós Lovász]

Thank you, Pavel, for joining in with a Czech perspective! As something of a linguist, though, please tell me - if you break down the word "praporcik" into its syllables "pra", "por" and "cik" what does each bit mean separately before being combined into one whole word? Does "pra", for instance, mean "pre-" or "first" or "great" as it does in Russian? In Russian I believe "chik" means "rank" or "officer", so I could be shooting my earlier arguments in the foot if the Czech meaning is the same! The Russian "por" has a myriad possibilities, mainly connected with time.

Bill

Not sylables, but words you should consider! "Prapor" is flag, "chik" comes from "chelovek", i.e. "man". Therefore, Praporchik = the man that carries the flag. Compare to German "Fahnrich" (Fahne=flag) and Hungarian zaszlos (zaszlo = flag). The rank came into beeing in the XVIIIth century, denoting the juniormost officer of the company, tasked with carrying (and protecting) the flag. By the XIXth century, the rank in Austria became one given to the officer-candidates, i.e. those younglings that finished the officer training courses and were on probation, so to speak. Nowadays, in the Hungarian Home Defence Force the 3 "zaszlos" ranks are similar to the British Warrant Officers, i.e. they are highere NCOs.

[BillW41]

I started a reply, but lost it while reviewing Zdzislaw's comment, so I'll start again.
The Roman "Sergeant" was Signifer which also means "Standard Bearer" hence I interpreted that as Ensign also rather than Sergeant. Back to square one!

(I'll be absent for four days until next Tuesday. That'll give everyone time to think up another angle.)

Bill

[Miklós Lovász]

I started a reply, but lost it while reviewing Zdzislaw's comment, so I'll start again.
The Roman "Sergeant" was Signifer which also means "Standard Bearer" hence I interpreted that as Ensign also rather than Sergeant. Back to square one!

(I'll be absent for four days until next Tuesday. That'll give everyone time to think up another angle.)

Bill

No, it doesn't. It means "servant" and came into beeing in Medieval France as "serjant aux armes" i.e. servant of a knight who assisted him in battle. Later, the permanent military corps of Philip Le Beau became known as sergeants. Because in war members of this force were sent to stiffen the levies, the term "sergeant" became a low permanent rank in the military.

[Luke]

Do you surrender now? /Luke

[img]http://www.naval-history.net/WW2aaRN-PayTables18-19Officers.JPG[/img]

Navy List 1942

Source: http://www.naval-history.net/WW2aaRN-PayTables00Ranks-Badges.htm

See also sketors post above.

[60bill]

Firstly I didn't serve before 49, and I wasn't comparing WWII marines with todays [there's hardly the manpower for a couple of WOI's today]
I have never come accross reference of any marine holding a commissioned warant rank [but it seems I could be wrong].
I would be interested to know if in deed any marine WO's aquired these commissioned ranks.
Another thing that seems to be at odds, although the marines followed army ranking, and the marine officers rated with army officers, why did they give commissioned rank to marine warrant's?
The reference I have is:
During the second world war a necissity arose for a specially qualified group of warrant officers to rank with the staff naval officer.
In april 1949 all these warrant officers were upgraded to commissioned officers and senior commissioned officers.

[LONDON]

I have never come accross reference of any marine holding a commissioned warant rank [but it seems I could be wrong].
I would be interested to know if in deed any marine WO's aquired these commissioned ranks.
Another thing that seems to be at odds, although the marines followed army ranking, and the marine officers rated with army officers, why did they give commissioned rank to marine warrant's?

RM Warrant Officers were equivalent in rank with RN Warrant Officers up to 1949:

e.g.RM Gunner, Staff Sergeant Major.

There was also the higher rank of Commissioned Officer from Warrant: e.g. Commissioned Sergeant Major.

Have a look at the link below:

http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/LondonGazette/WO_Reviewed.html

After 1949, these ranks became known as Branch Officers: e.g. Commissioned Sergeant Major and Senior Commissioned Sergeant Major.

Branch Officer ranks were abolished in 1956.

The Royal Marines also had the NCO rank of Regimental Sergeant Major from the early 1940s. They wore the same insignia as the British Army WO1 but were classed as NCOs rather than Warrant Officers.

[BillW41]

Sorry, Miklos, you nearly got it right but not quite. For a start I think you misunderstood my comment. Historians other than myself have translated the Latin "Signifer" as "Sergeant" when it really means "Standard Bearer". Sergeants began as "Sergents d'Armes" ("Armed Servants") under King Henry I. Initially there were 12 of them under the command of the "Prevot" (Provost) of Paris in his capacity of "Connetable" (Constable) and Military Commandant. Later, of course, "Sergents d'Armes" became "Gendarmes".
You really should read my book.

Bill

[Miklós Lovász]

I very much doubt that you can equate Signifer with Sergeant. If so, what would you call the Decurio? Not to mention, that the Signifer had one duty: to carry and protect the Signum, just as the Aquilifer carried the Aquila. They had no other tasks - at least not permanently, I don't doubt any commander could task them occasionally with other duties as well (obviously, not during a battle or march). The Decurio commanded about 30 men, so either you call him a subaltern or a sergeant - if you can at all apply these terms to Roman military.

As to the sergeant matter, here are three links:

[url]http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergent[/url]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serjeant-at-Arms[/url]

[url]http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergente[/url]

As you can see, I wasn't very far off the mark. The interesting is the theory put forward in the Italian version, which states that the term "sergento" comes from "signori e gente" contracted to "serra gente" and marking those men who were tasked with keeping the lines together, hence men of authority.

And as to the Gendarmes matter, I'm quite sure it comes from "gens d'armes" i.e. "armed men" and not from "serjeant d'armes", although the latter did become the Archer Corps that acted as a mobile public security force.

[BillW41]

This Roman diversion is becoming as complicated as the Czech "Ensign/Warrant Officer" discussion!
Decurio, a cavalry rank, could be either Captain or Lieutenant (being a troop commander). Optio is Adjutant. Centurio is Sergeant-Major (perhaps Commissioned Warrant Officer, but with infantry company CO overtones - in several different grades), Succenturio could be Subaltern perhaps, Signifer equals Sergeant (or, more literally, Ensign?), Decanus is Corporal. Of course, there was the additional lesser-ranked standard-bearer, Vexillarius - also sometimes translated as Ensign.

If anyone doubts that apparent NCO ranks can be senior to commissioned ranks, take a look at some of the Hispanic arrangements, e.g. Spanish Guardia Civil, where Second Lieutenant is senior to Sub-Officer Major (as one would expect) but Sub-Lieutenant is junior to Sub-Officer Major.

Bill

[60bill]

Before I get shot down in flames again, I'm asking not stating!
Would the rank given to the Italian Fascist Militia help.
They refused to be ranked along with the miliitary and used Roman [their version] rank.
Console - Legion for Colonel - Regiment.
Primo Seniore for Lieutenant Col.
Seniore - Cohort for Major - Battalion.
Centuione -Century for Captain - Company.
Capo Manipolo - Maniple for Lieutenant - Platoon.
Sotto Capo Manipolo for Second Lieutenant.
Aspirante Sotto Capo for Cadet.
Primo Aiutante for WO 1st class.
Aiutante Capo for WO 2nd class.
Aiutante for WO 3rd class.
Primo Capo Squadra for Sergeant Major.
Capo Squadra - Squad for Sergeant - Squad.
Vice Capo Squadra for Corporal Major.
Camicia Nera Scelta for Corporal.
Camicia Nera for Private.
I don't think they quite managed to capture the true Roman ranks. They also used ranks such as Commandante, Capo di Stato, Caporale and Scelto.
Scelto seems to be junior to Vice Caposquadra. I can only guess that it's meaning is that the person was selected/choosen from the many to join, and the title was used to give the individual some form of status.

[BillW41]

That's very interesting, Bill, not something I was fully aware of. I can see what they tried to achieve but, like you, I think they missed a bit. My understanding of Roman ranks (derived from Gibbons' "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire", "The Oxford History of the Classical World", Goldsworthy's "Roman Warfare", Collins Latin-English English-Latin Dictionary and various other sources I've read since about 1950), is that they varied from time to time under the republic and the empire. Mostly, however, the Imperator (Commander) was at the top and that title eventually became Emperor. It has been argued that Praetors ("Principals") were Assistant-Commanders who did the military planning. Then we come to Lieutenant-Commander, Legatus, who usually commanded a legion assisted by a Tribunus (Colonel), Praefectus Castrorum (Quartermaster or Camp Superintendent), and junior Tribuni (Majors?). Off on a tangent were the Decurions (cavalry troop Captains) and Optiones (Adjutants), then come the Centurions: First Spear Centurion (Regimental Sergeant-Major), Senior Head Centurion, Head Centurion, Rear Head Centurion, Senior Chief Centurion, Chief Centurion, Rear Chief Centurion, Senior Lance Centurion, Lance Centurion, Rear Lance Centurion, Sub-Centurion. At the bottom are Signifer, Decanus and Legionary.
That should give the critics of literal translation something to get their teeth into. Perhaps I'll do the Vigiles next!

Bill

[Miklós Lovász]

Ehem ... decurio comes from "ten" and centurio from "hundred" ... I VERY much doubt that the "commander of ten" was superior to the "commander of hundred", even if following the Marian reforms the decurio commanded some 40 legionnaires ...

I just moved all non-"Czech and Slovak praporcik" related debate over here.

[BillW41]

Yes, Miklos, I know that. Evidently ten horse were considered equal to, or greater than, 100 infantry (although latterly centuries only consisted of 80 men anyway). Decurions were Equestrians, while Centurions were Plebeians. It was a social strata thing.

Bill

[Miklós Lovász]

Any chance you can point me to the source of this? I mean, insofar I knew that decurios and centurios were both used within any combat arm, just as today Sergean would be used both for infantry and, say, artillery ... and please, don't tell me that I should read your book. I would love to, but in the meantime, I'd like some independent source for you views.

[BillW41]

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply. Something (or someone) was blocking my access to the website for several days. Anyway I'm back. Sources include the books I mentioned before, starting with my grandfather's copy of Gibbon's "Rise and Fall...", and continuing with 50-odd years of reading many books and magazines. I really can't be more specific than that.

Bill

[60bill]

Trying together some form of stucture to the Roman issue I'm found this site :-
http://www.romanempire.net/romepage/ForumRomanum/mosmaiorum/mosmaiorum.htm#RANK%20STRUCTURE

Not knowing any better I'm unable to vouch for it's accuracy, it looks good to me, don't know if it's of help to anyone but the thoughts there!

[60bill]

Adding a ps.
This site is a 'I want to be a Roman' thing.
The reason I thought it may be of interest is, they seem to take it all very serious.
The small amount of roman rank that I know corresponds with the site, so why not the rest.
Have a look and decide if it's of use.

[Luke]

The site above is some kind of game site, not giving the full story of the Roman army rank structure and full of redundant game information.

This site is more informative: http://s_van_dorst.tripod.com/Ancient_Warfare/Rome/hierarchy.html
But I do not like the references to modern Western terms like NCO, Subaltern etc.; completely unhistorical.

This site is better, describing the rank structure on contemporary terms:
http://www.unrv.com/military/legion.php

[img]http://www.bible-history.com/sketches/ancient/centurion.jpg[/img]
Centurion

[BillW41]

Luke's last-named website "...military/legion..." is excellent. It lists the ranks in full and accurately, in Latin - compare with my English translations.

Bill

[60bill]

Luke's correct,
The site I mentioned is far from perfect but did have a little subject matter.
His second link is streets ahead for Roman army stucture, so forget my link [unless you want to play a centurion].
Lukes site,seems to have most of the information required to deal with most questions on the Roman army's stucture.

[mbbwp]

Could if be possible that people are getting confused over Warrant Officers having the right to be offered a full Commision and thus becoming an Officer with them acutally holding one as a WO?

An RAF WO/MAC, should they take up a Commision (and most do) will become a Flight Lieutenant on passing out at RAF Cranwell. Army and RM, Captain and I don't know about the RN.

[lordziba]

"To complicate the issue further, Russian MVD Justice Militia (investigative police) have a rank of Praporshchik which the Oxford Russian dictionary translates as "Ensign". Literally it appears to mean "Pre-officer" (Aspirant?) and is equivalent to Lieutenant in the general Militia or Inspector"

Sorry to bud-in. But some meanings of the Russian/Soviet Army had to be clarified. At first, indeed, the Oxford Russian dictionary translation of "Ensign" is correct, "Praporschick" literally means “Banner Holder”, it’s just like "Starshina" (please, do not confuse with naval "Starshinas," those are different meaning) coming from the old Strelets Regiments. Now, there at least two meanings of the rank of "Praporschick." So, first, let’s look into the tsars' periods, indeed, the rank was as a “Candidate Into Officer“ service, and first noble rank. On the other hand, I want to point out that, the "Junior Lieutenant," is a pure Soviet Era invention, "Praporschick," who in turn was promoted from "Fieldfebel" was akin to the "Junior Lieutenant" of the Soviet /Red Army. Now, second: The rank of "Praporschick," if my memory did not betray me, was instituted in 1975 or so. This was needed due to the lack of professional(warrant) ranks, since the soldier NCO function was only on "Starshina," who decided to stay beyond normal conscript time. I could say that "Starshina" was the first professional Soviet Soldier. However, "Starshina" was more akin to the Sergeant-Major, not Warrant officer. Therefore, in the 1970's with beginning of the new army reforms, and rearming of the army, as well appearance of the new, much more sophisticated weapons, there was a need to create more less professional interim rank, beyond the rank of "Starshina." So, there was a new rank of "Praporschick," with slightly later add-on of "Senior Praporschick." The rank of "Praporschick"still continued function as sorts of Sergeant-Major, but now also the responsibility of the tech operators, and other none-command officer functions. Even though there were only two ranks of "Praporschick," they got “promoted “ akin to the regular officer, only in a salary, which by the way was denoted by the service stripes. However, in the reality, unlike the paper, soldier-conscripts did not like them for stupidity (sorts of idiots who did not cut the officer mustard, and bribery machines in the Militia), furthermore, "Praporschick" became synonym to the wasted in time or job disillusioned warrior, who hit the dead end and a subject to many jokes. I hope this helps!

Zibster !