Question on Precedence

[JazzGuy]

Hi All,

I have a more general question for you all, one regarding precenence of titles.

First, how does one order titles before a name. These include ranks, doctorates, religious titles, peerages, honourifics, etc. What is the general rule to follow when someone has many different titles, such as Dr., Colonel, and Honourable?

Second, what is the order of postnominal letters? These include academic degrees, professional certification, honours and awards, membership in orders, etc. How would one order a B.A., M.A., Ph.D., LL.B., O.B.E., Q.C., P.C., C.M.A., etc.

Thanks for the help!

[Proteus]

First, how does one order titles before a name. These include ranks, doctorates, religious titles, peerages, honourifics, etc. What is the general rule to follow when someone has many different titles, such as Dr., Colonel, and Honourable?

In the example you give, he'd be Colonel The Hon John Smith.

The general order, as far as I know, is:
1) "His Excellency" (ambassadors)
2) Military rank, Prof, Dr, Mr, Mrs, Miss etc
3) Ecclesiastical prefixes - The Most Rev, The Rt Rev, The Very Rev, The Ven, The Rev
4) Temporal prefixes - His Majesty, His Royal Highness, His Grace, The Most Hon, The Rt Hon, The Hon
5) Ecclesiastical position, peerage, knighthood

(Rev = Reverend, Ven - Venerable, Hon = Honourable, Rt = Right)

If someone has more than one thing in a particular category, only the one listed first is used. The exception is category 4: if someone has something from category 3, the only prefixes from category 4 that can be used are the ones with "Hon" in them, and they are added to the preceding ecclesiastical prefix with an "and". The "ordinary" titles like Mr, Mrs and Dr are not used with other prefixes, so someone is "The Hon John Smith", not "Mr The Hon John Smith" or "Dr The Hon John Smith". "Sir" goes after prefixes, unlike the other titles, so someone could be "Prof The Rt Hon Sir John Smith".

Thus, an Archbishop of Canterbury (Most Rev for being an Archbishop and Rt Hon for being a Privy Counsellor) who had served in the military and was appointed as an ambassador would be something like "His Excellency General The Most Rev and Rt Hon The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury".

I'd be happy to help with any specific examples you have.

Second, what is the order of postnominal letters? These include academic degrees, professional certification, honours and awards, membership in orders, etc. How would one order a B.A., M.A., Ph.D., LL.B., O.B.E., Q.C., P.C., C.M.A., etc.

This site answers your question quite thoroughly:

http://www.debretts.co.uk/etiquette/post_nominals.html

University degrees are either listed in ascending or descending order, depending mainly on whim (Oxford likes ascending, Cambridge likes descending, for instance).

[Ilek]

First, how does one order titles before a name. These include ranks, doctorates, religious titles, peerages, honourifics, etc. What is the general rule to follow when someone has many different titles, such as Dr., Colonel, and Honourable?

In the example you give, he'd be Colonel The Hon John Smith.

The general order, as far as I know, is:
1) "His Excellency" (ambassadors)
2) Military rank, Prof, Dr, Mr, Mrs, Miss etc
3) Ecclesiastical prefixes - The Most Rev, The Rt Rev, The Very Rev, The Ven, The Rev
4) Temporal prefixes - His Majesty, His Royal Highness, His Grace, The Most Hon, The Rt Hon, The Hon
5) Ecclesiastical position, peerage, knighthood

(Rev = Reverend, Ven - Venerable, Hon = Honourable, Rt = Right)

If someone has more than one thing in a particular category, only the one listed first is used. The exception is category 4: if someone has something from category 3, the only prefixes from category 4 that can be used are the ones with "Hon" in them, and they are added to the preceding ecclesiastical prefix with an "and". The "ordinary" titles like Mr, Mrs and Dr are not used with other prefixes, so someone is "The Hon John Smith", not "Mr The Hon John Smith" or "Dr The Hon John Smith". "Sir" goes after prefixes, unlike the other titles, so someone could be "Prof The Rt Hon Sir John Smith".

Thus, an Archbishop of Canterbury (Most Rev for being an Archbishop and Rt Hon for being a Privy Counsellor) who had served in the military and was appointed as an ambassador would be something like "His Excellency General The Most Rev and Rt Hon The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury".

I guess the order of titles before a name differs from country to country and from language to language. I suppose the above "system" is valid for the UK. In other language traditions this order may be quite different.

[JazzGuy]

Thank you for your helpful information. There is no other place I know of than here where I could recieve such helpful information in a short period of time. He really do have a great thing going here.

I was wondering, does anyone know how this system compairs to that of the United States or Canada. I'm especially interested in Canada, since I live there.

I hope everyone has a great holiday season

[JazzGuy]

Thank you for your helpful information. There is no other place I know of than here where I could recieve such helpful information in a short period of time. He really do have a great thing going here.

I was wondering, does anyone know how this system compairs to that of the United States or Canada. I'm especially interested in Canada, since I live there.

I hope everyone has a great holiday season

[Ilek]

I guess the order of titles before a name differs from country to country and from language to language. I suppose the above "system" is valid for the UK. In other language traditions this order may be quite different.

Here an example of Polish titles, or rather what I call Polish title-mania. :)

<b>Gen. dyw. pil. prof. dr hab. inz.</b> Jan Kowalski

The man is:

1) Major General ("gen. dyw.", <i>general dywizji</i>)

2) Military pilot ("pil.", <i>pilot</i>)

3) Professor in some engineering science ("prof.", <i>profesor</i>; "inz.", <i>inzynier</i>)

4) Ph.D. in some engineering science with some further qualifications, something like <i>Associate Professor</i>. in the US or <i>Reader</i> in the UK ("dr. hab", <i>doktor habilitowany</i>; "inz.", <i>inzynier</i>)

But what if he also is an ambassador and a Catholic priest? I guess the Polish word <i>ambasador</i> will come first, before all other titles, but where on the line should we put the Polish abbreviation "ks." (<i>ksiadz</i>, i.e. <i>priest</i>)?

Anyone in Poland?

[Robb Mavins]

There are 3 major works that show correct protocol for English language.

Whitakers
Burkes
Stuarts

I am just getting back so will publish more and links when at my desk, but another good source is US State Department "Protocol"

The Basic rules of protocol which is what you are looking for is standard, and I will drop this in tommorrow. There is an international accepted "rules of protocol and precedence”.

If you want a good intro - pick up the full version of Whitakers Almanac or go to your library, general public, law or poly sci have it.

As an odd note in Canada VC (Victoria Cross) holders are given far more honour than our new CV (Cross of Valour) holders.

[Erwin]

In Singapore English, Mandrain, Malay and Tamil are all official language. For the English protocol we follow the British, while for the Mandrain protocol it's slightly different, we put the appointment first, then the name follow by the title.

A very simple example:

San Jun Zhong Zhan XXX Zhong Jiang
"Chief of Defence Force XXX Lieutenant-General"

We do not have any Ecclesiastical prefixes or Temporal prefixes for Mandrain.

Except once in Thailand I've came across their local Chinese newspaper on a report about HM the Thai King's visit to Myanmar, in the report it states Guo Wang Bi Xia, which means His Majesty the King. However directly translate from Chinese is "The King His Majesty".

[Proteus]

I was wondering, does anyone know how this system compairs to that of the United States or Canada. I'm especially interested in Canada, since I live there.

The Canadian system is probably extremely similar to the UK one.

The US won't be nearly as complicated, as there are far fewer titles, and they tend to be used on their own, with the particular title used normally up to the personal choice of each individual rather than a set order of precedence. (Someone who has been both a General in the Army and a State Governor could choose to be known as either "General John Smith" or "Governor John Smith".)

"His/Her Excellency" is used in all countries for ambassadors, though.

[Necrothesp]

The general order, as far as I know, is:
1) "His Excellency" (ambassadors)
2) Military rank, Prof, Dr, Mr, Mrs, Miss etc
3) Ecclesiastical prefixes - The Most Rev, The Rt Rev, The Very Rev, The Ven, The Rev
4) Temporal prefixes - His Majesty, His Royal Highness, His Grace, The Most Hon, The Rt Hon, The Hon
5) Ecclesiastical position, peerage, knighthood

(Rev = Reverend, Ven - Venerable, Hon = Honourable, Rt = Right)

If someone has more than one thing in a particular category, only the one listed first is used. The exception is category 4: if someone has something from category 3, the only prefixes from category 4 that can be used are the ones with "Hon" in them, and they are added to the preceding ecclesiastical prefix with an "and". The "ordinary" titles like Mr, Mrs and Dr are not used with other prefixes, so someone is "The Hon John Smith", not "Mr The Hon John Smith" or "Dr The Hon John Smith". "Sir" goes after prefixes, unlike the other titles, so someone could be "Prof The Rt Hon Sir John Smith".

Thus, an Archbishop of Canterbury (Most Rev for being an Archbishop and Rt Hon for being a Privy Counsellor) who had served in the military and was appointed as an ambassador would be something like "His Excellency General The Most Rev and Rt Hon The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury".

Generally, this is true, but like everything else there are exceptions. For instance, Dr can be used with Reverend (The Rt Rev Dr John Smith). The ecclesiastical prefix precedes Prof (The Rev Prof John Smith). Mrs can be used with Honourable if the 'Honourable' is the lady's husband's title and not her own, and never in combination with her first name although possibly with his (The Hon Mrs Smith or The Hon Mrs John Smith, but not The Hon Mrs Jane Smith). Dr is often used with Hon (The Rt Hon Dr Mo Mowlam), but may well be incorrect. Dr is sometimes also seen with Sir (Dr Sir Rhodes Boyson), but is definitely incorrect.

'Lord' and 'Lady' should also be added to category 5 if they are used with a first name to denote the younger son of a duke or marquess or the daughter of a duke, marquess or earl (Prof Lord John Smith or Colonel Lady Jane Smith).

Also, clergymen of the Anglican and Roman Catholic Churches can be knighted, but never take the title (The Rt Rev John Smith KBE, not The Rt Hon Sir John Smith KBE) unless they were knighted before they were ordained, since they cannot receive the accolade (the tap on each shoulder with a sword). They can use peerage titles (The Rt Rev Lord Smith) and baronetcies (The Rev Sir John Smith Bt). Clergymen of other denominations and rabbis can take the title (The Rev or Rabbi Sir John Smith).

[Proteus]

Generally, this is true, but like everything else there are exceptions. For instance, Dr can be used with Reverend (The Rt Rev Dr John Smith). The ecclesiastical prefix precedes Prof (The Rev Prof John Smith). Mrs can be used with Honourable if the 'Honourable' is the lady's husband's title and not her own, and never in combination with her first name although possibly with his (The Hon Mrs Smith or The Hon Mrs John Smith, but not The Hon Mrs Jane Smith). Dr is often used with Hon (The Rt Hon Dr Mo Mowlam), but may well be incorrect. Dr is sometimes also seen with Sir (Dr Sir Rhodes Boyson), but is definitely incorrect.

'Lord' and 'Lady' should also be added to category 5 if they are used with a first name to denote the younger son of a duke or marquess or the daughter of a duke, marquess or earl (Prof Lord John Smith or Colonel Lady Jane Smith).

Technically, titles and styles from the sovereign or the church shouldn't be used with those from other places (universities, for example). Thus "The Rt Rev Dr John Smith" is technically incorrect (although probably used widely), as are "The Rev Prof John Smith", "The Rt Hon Dr Mo Mowlam", and "Prof Lord John Smith". ("Colonel Lady Jane Smith", however, is fine, as both military rank and courtesy titles are from the sovereign.)

There is a distinction between "The Hon Mrs John Smith" and "The Hon Mrs Smith". "The Hon Mrs John Smith" is the wife of "The Hon John Smith", when she had no courtesy title before she married. If a woman who is "Hon" herself (and so is "The Hon Jane Jones" before marriage) marries, she becomes "The Hon Mrs Smith", regardless of whether her husband is "Hon" or not (of course, if he is something higher, she'd use the higher form). I have seen a couple of instances of "The Hon Mrs Jane Smith" for divorced wives of "Hon"s, but it is completely incorrect (a divorced wife of an "Hon" can either remain "The Hon Mrs John Smith" or revert to her pre-marriage style).

[Robb Mavins]

Hi All,

I have a more general question for you all, one regarding precenence of titles.

First, how does one order titles before a name. These include ranks, doctorates, religious titles, peerages, honourifics, etc. What is the general rule to follow when someone has many different titles, such as Dr., Colonel, and Honourable?

Second, what is the order of postnominal letters? These include academic degrees, professional certification, honours and awards, membership in orders, etc. How would one order a B.A., M.A., Ph.D., LL.B., O.B.E., Q.C., P.C., C.M.A., etc.

Thanks for the help!

Rt. Hon. Dr. John Smith, P.C., Q.C., O.B.E., Ph.D., M.A., LL.B.,B.A., C.M.A.

Honours, before military rank, before Academia, before professional designations.

Again use "Whitaker's Almanac"

[Miklós Lovász]

Well, I guess it depend ot he particular language employed, too. For instance, in Hungarian, with it's syntax quite the opposite of English it would go like this:

appelative - His Excellency, His Highness, etc
scientifical titles - professor, dr
praedicatum - the place liked to the nobiliary title (as in "of Windsor", "of Leicester", etc)
nobiliar title - noble (approx. Esquire), baron, count, duke
Surname
Christian Name
military rank
military function (army commander, chief of staff, field bishop, etc)
scientific title in extenso (doctor at Law, doctor of medicine, etc).

There is one exception: Royal Princes, in their case the structure beeing:

His Royal Highness Dr. [Surname] [Christian Name], [name of rank]

the difference beeing that no praedicatum is used, as they are all Royal Hungarian Princes.

Now since Hungary is a Republic, the structure remained the same, with the obvious omission of the nobiliary title and praedicatum.
With the clergy, almost the same applies:

[appelation] - D. or D.Dr. [as in honorary doctor of divinity or doctor of divinity - Protestant only!] - [Surname] [Christian Name] - [title: priest, bishop of ..., archbishop of ... (Catholics only!)]

[Proteus]

Rt. Hon. Dr. John Smith, P.C., Q.C., O.B.E., Ph.D., M.A., LL.B.,B.A., C.M.A.

The "Dr" shouldn't be used as well as the "Rt Hon" ("Rt Hon" takes precedence) and OBE comes before PC.

[Necrothesp]

Rt. Hon. Dr. John Smith, P.C., Q.C., O.B.E., Ph.D., M.A., LL.B.,B.A., C.M.A.

The "Dr" shouldn't be used as well as the "Rt Hon" ("Rt Hon" takes precedence) and OBE comes before PC.

Technically, Rt Hon and PC shouldn't be used together either, since they both indicate the same thing. The only exception is the case of peers, who take the Rt Hon as part of their formal peerage title and do also use PC if they are Privy Councillors. Dr and PhD (or any other doctorate) shouldn't be used together for the same reason - Dr John Smith or John Smith PhD, but not both. Needless to say, these formal rules are very often broken.

QC (and JP, DL etc) also come after awarded honours like OBE.

[Proteus]

Rt. Hon. Dr. John Smith, P.C., Q.C., O.B.E., Ph.D., M.A., LL.B.,B.A., C.M.A.

The "Dr" shouldn't be used as well as the "Rt Hon" ("Rt Hon" takes precedence) and OBE comes before PC.

Technically, Rt Hon and PC shouldn't be used together either, since they both indicate the same thing. The only exception is the case of peers, who take the Rt Hon as part of their formal peerage title and do also use PC if they are Privy Councillors.

Robb Mavins is from Canada, where PC is generally used at the same time as "The Rt Hon". (I think you can be given "The Rt Hon" for services to Canada and so it doesn't necessarily mean you're a Privy Counsellor there.)