Flag Officer discusion (started under Canadian Commodore)

[Robb Mavins]

Since we veered a little off the original topic, I thought it might be of benefit to all if we continued this discussion here in the general forum.

This muliti-page discussion started under “Canadian Commodore” by Yasu in the America, Military Forum. We have now covered at least 3 continents, 7 or more countries and the universal translation topic so. ….
Lots of good information has been discussed so far and the link to the original discussion is here http://forum.rankinsignia.info/viewtopic.php?t=1374
If anyone thinks this is an incorrect step let me know but it seems that if you are new to the forum you would probably not be looking under Canadian Commodore for information on Swedish, Romanian or Polish Flag officers

[Robb Mavins]

Another point that I made earlier up the chain is that in official translations and on the English website the Navy of Israel called the rank of tat-aluf “Commodore” until recently, now it also seems to have become Rear Admiral. It really does not matter, as they can give it any equivilant they want in English as that is not what it means. I am sure you have seen the multipage “universal translation discussion” http://forum.rankinsignia.info/viewtopic.php?t=677

Well, <i>panta rei</i>, as ancient Greeks would say...

In the IDF, as in Poland, Navy ranks correspond exactly to the ranks in the Ground Forces; in Israel even more since the names of the ranks are the same, which is not the case with Poland. If you look at the insignia, the Tat Aluf is <b>not</b> something between Colonel and Generals, as Commodore often is between Captain and lowest Admiral; Tat Aluf is rather the lowest General. This would suggest that in the Navy it should be the lowest Admiral, i.e. Rear Admiral.

Ilek , yes I agreed <i>everything changes</i>, and yes in terms of the “Commodore” vs Rear Admiral in Israel yes you are correct it does make sense, especially since the Navy has only one Flag Officer. I note on the non Hebrew IDF home page they actually now use just “Admiral” (probably to stop me making a point about Flotilla Admiral/Rear Admiral).

[Robb Mavins]

Reffering to your statement, there is no such a position in the Polish Navy like
C-i-C of the Navy while there is a post of Commander of the Navy in deed. According to the Art.134, Constitution of the Republic of Poland the President is the Supreme Superior of the Armed Forces of the Republic of Poland. Commander - in - Chief of the Armed Forces is a war-time appointment only by a designation by the President of the Republic. Never in the history of Polish Republic any Admiral has been appointed as the Chief of the General Staff, although one was temporarly acting as MoD - but it was a political decission in the early post-communist period. In my opinion this traditional system will not change and the rank of Admiral (Admirał) **** has been created for the most senior naval flag officer acting as Commander of the Navy.
Please go the website of the Polish MoD at
http://www.mon.gov.pl
Click on "English version", and after that on the text "In the Polish Armed Forces" under the headline "WHO IS WHO" in the menu on the left side. Then, click on either "Who is who? in the Polish Navy" or on "GENERALS AND ADMIRALS OF THE POLISH ARMED FORCES IN REGULAR SERVICE". In both documents the title is "Commander-in-Chief of the Navy".

The original title is Dowódca Marynarki Wojennej RP.
http://grom.mw.mil.pl/whoiswho.html
Dowódca = Commander
Naczelny Dowódca = Commander-in-Chief
This title in "English version" is simply mistranslated :oops: :cry: :? .
I'm really very sorry because of that. The same situation as in discussion about Romanian Rear Admiral occured.

Actually this is the kind of thing I think would be great to be documented as we go forward,

Denat, I also used, as an example the title CinC for the Israel Navy, I have not had time to go back and check the Hebrew pages for the correct title. When I used that I was using the English “equivalent” to make it easy.
As I mentioned previously, it can be so difficult to get something “correct” in terms of both a “literal” and “equivalent” translation. Of course much discussion here on that under “universal translation” http://forum.rankinsignia.info/viewtopic.php?t=677

Especially when as noted above by Denat & Miklos even Official sites have difficultly.
Pavel & his group have given us all a great opportunity to make a really useful site.

[Denat]

Since we veered a little off the original topic, I thought it might be of benefit to all if we continued this discussion here in the general forum.

This muliti-page discussion started under “Canadian Commodore” by Yasu in the America, Military Forum. We have now covered at least 3 continents, 7 or more countries and the universal translation topic so. ….
Lots of good information has been discussed so far and the link to the original discussion is here http://forum.rankinsignia.info/viewtopic.php?t=1374
If anyone thinks this is an incorrect step let me know but it seems that if you are new to the forum you would probably not be looking under Canadian Commodore for information on Swedish, Romanian or Polish Flag officers

Robb, I agree that the general forum will certainly be the most appropriate place to continue our long and interesting discussion.
As you mentioned:

Especially when as noted above by Denat & Miklos even Official sites have difficultly.

This example clearly shows us, that there will be many problems with finding the equivalent ranks, assignments or positions and also with keeping as much of original intent of the rank title as possible while only that gives us all a good opportunity to understand it. There is no easy solution of that problem, so once again famous “universal translation” topic comes back.

[Guest]

Robb, Denat, Miklos, Ilek

Thank you for your very comphrehensive answers - Yau havew supplied me wiith much good information.

Robb - I will try to find the position you mentioned

[Yasu]

Sorry above post was me - again thanks

Are there states in AFrica, South America, or Asia that have Commodores style rank

[Yasu]

Since we veered a little off the original topic, I thought it might be of benefit to all if we continued this discussion here in the general forum.

This muliti-page discussion started under “Canadian Commodore” by Yasu in the America, Military Forum. We have now covered at least 3 continents, 7 or more countries and the universal translation topic so. ….
Lots of good information has been discussed so far and the link to the original discussion is here http://forum.rankinsignia.info/viewtopic.php?t=1374
If anyone thinks this is an incorrect step let me know but it seems that if you are new to the forum you would probably not be looking under Canadian Commodore for information on Swedish, Romanian or Polish Flag officers

Robb, I agree that the general forum will certainly be the most appropriate place to continue our long and interesting discussion.
As you mentioned:

Especially when as noted above by Denat & Miklos even Official sites have difficultly.

This example clearly shows us, that there will be many problems with finding the equivalent ranks, assignments or positions and also with keeping as much of original intent of the rank title as possible while only that gives us all a good opportunity to understand it. There is no easy solution of that problem, so once again famous “universal translation” :twisted: topic comes back.

Thanks - this topic of translation is most interesting and difficult

[Robb Mavins]

Hi just a kick back to the start or this thread: Just came across this
According to the USAF Historical Center http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/colonel.htm#commodore
"The Dutch invented the Commodore rank about 1652 during one of their naval wars with England. They found they needed officers to command squadrons, but did not want to create more Admirals, perhaps to avoid paying Admirals’ salaries. A Commodore’s pay was only about half that of an Admiral. The word comes from comendador, which means "having command over others" and might be of French or Spanish origin. The Dutch leader William of Orange introduced the rank to the British navy after he became King William III of England in 1689. Sometime later the British merchant marine began calling the senior officer of a merchant fleet Commodore. The Dutch also used the broad command pennant, a wide swallow-tailed pennant, that has become identified with Commodores in many navies."