Uniform Insignia Forum

I dunno if this should go here or in the European rank section, but since it does fall under the category of 'hypothetical', I'll post it here.

What if the Kriegsmarine had standard-duty officer uniforms similar to the U.S. Navy khakis? Anyone care to speculate how the collar insignia would look?

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:I dunno if this should go here or in the European rank section, but since it does fall under the category of 'hypothetical', I'll post it here.

What if the Kriegsmarine had standard-duty officer uniforms similar to the U.S. Navy khakis? Anyone care to speculate how the collar insignia would look?

For officers there is a major problem: rank pips are the same insignia from Leutnant zur See (Ensign) to Kapitän zur See (Captain); top NCOs and Flag ranks had silver pips.
Furthermore, Leutnant zur See, Korvettenkapitan and Konteradmiral all have no rank pips: the difference was given by the different trim used for shoulder boards.
I think that a collar rank system could be imagined only if a series of additional rank/role insignia would be provided.

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:I dunno if this should go here or in the European rank section, but since it does fall under the category of 'hypothetical', I'll post it here.

What if the Kriegsmarine had standard-duty officer uniforms similar to the U.S. Navy khakis? Anyone care to speculate how the collar insignia would look?

My guess is that in the event that the German Navy had adopted a similar uniform they would have worn the standard shoulder epaulettes much like the British Royal Navy in their khaki uniform that was worn in the Far East, the Med, and Africa. I also believe the Royal Navy had slip on shoulder slides as well.

not sure what to make for the feldwebels yet but for the officers, you could have a system such as this for pins:

[img]http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/7113/kriegsmarinecollar.jpg[/img]

marcpasquin wrote:not sure what to make for the feldwebels yet but for the officers, you could have a system such as this for pins:

[img]http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/7113/kriegsmarinecollar.jpg[/img]

Maybe put the pips on the bars.

marcpasquin wrote:not sure what to make for the feldwebels yet but for the officers, you could have a system such as this for pins:

[img]http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/7113/kriegsmarinecollar.jpg[/img]

Those are great! But I'd agree with mounting the pips on the bars themselves.

Here's a couple more:

Grossadmiral - Four gold bars with crossed marshal's batons over them
Reichsadmiral (navy Reichsmarschall) - Four gold bars with the Nazi eagle (minus swastika so as not to offend anyone).

And as for the Chief Petty Officers, how about the Nazi Eagle with stars around it (one star for each higher rank)?

Interesting designs. Looking at them I had a 'd'oh' moment.
They could use a variation of the camouflage used by the other forces.
They could substitute anchors or wavy lines for the oak leaves/wings or the stripes

http://uniforminsignia.org/?option=com_insigniasearch&Itemid=53&result=581

http://uniforminsignia.org/?option=com_insigniasearch&Itemid=53&result=594

http://uniforminsignia.org/?option=com_insigniasearch&Itemid=53&result=591

Alternatively, miniature rank insignia, either based on the cuff or the collar, could be employed. I'll see if I can 'wip' something up.

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/1958/kriegsmarine.png

The smaller ones are scaled at 2 inch x 3(ish) inch for the officer and about 2 x 1.8inch for the hypothetical non-officer.
The first column are suggestions for L z S and the second is for K z S. While the wavy lines currently look similar to the Air Force rank insignia, that can be augmented by adding more waves to each individual stripe.
I chose the 2 oak leaves and three wavy stripes for the scale insignia since it was the last one I created and not because of any specific fondness. It would be difficult to distinguish, I think, but I think a lot of the ranks in the various services in various countries have that problem, so *shrug*

Nice job...those could also be used as hypothetical flight suit ranks for Graf Zeppelin's airwing.

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:Nice job...those could also be used as hypothetical flight suit ranks for Graf Zeppelin's airwing.

Thanks.
I recall seeing a Japanese Lt. wearing his cuff ranks on his left upper arm (not sure if it was from an Osprey book, Tora! Tora! Tora!, or both!) and wondered why that was never utilized in other countries.
Then I saw a similar use by Germany, and then I started wondering why the Kriegsmarine never adopted that insignia for their Seabattalions(sp?) I could see this being used for them as well.
One of the things about designing ranks that annoys me, is I can almost never get the exact measurements for a collar, epaulette, etc. so I'm wondering if the collar insignia might be unworkable, with the Luftwaffe/IJN being the better alternative. Unfortunately that OCD-lite of mine puts a damper on my attempts to create more or better variants.
On the plus side, the wavy lines are semi-heraldic so there's precedence in reality (not just in the 'Wavy Navy' of the RN, but I could see a certain chancellor being OK with its adoption, since he was found of the Brits)so it's plausible.
Hmmm, now I'm getting images of a WWII that happened later (about when the Field Marshals, Generals, and Admirals stated Germany would be ready) with jets launching from airships and carriers, Seajaegers and Seabattalions being deployed from all manner of craft, and a beleaguered Allies letting out one loud collective scream of a certain four-letter expletive starting with 'f.'
There's an interesting 'What If' story in their somewhere ....

The IJN did wear their insignias like that on their flight suits, whether they were enlisted, NCOs, or officers. I don't know whether IJA pilots did the same thing, but there's enough drawing to possibly create another page for the Japan section of the main site.

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:The IJN did wear their insignias like that on their flight suits, whether they were enlisted, NCOs, or officers. I don't know whether IJA pilots did the same thing, but there's enough drawing to possibly create another page for the Japan section of the main site.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/78th/Uniformsmall.jpg

Here's something from ebay that's supposed to be an IJA captain's flight suit with the rank only on the left sleeve. Whether this is legitimate or not, it's still interesting.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-Imperial-Japanese-Army-Captain-Pilot-Flight-Suit-Uniform-1944-Summer-Weight-/321112285035?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac3c89f6b&nma=true&si=7FnNgOjv4ghcvrzsmPLzW3c4BWY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

This would seem to imply that, at the very least, the enlisted did, since the Cpl and MSgt ranks appear to match the ones listed here:
http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option=com_insigniasearch&Itemid=53&result=1352

It also appears that in '39 ranks were worn on both upper arms, with rank at least appearing on the left arm in '43.
Sadly, the rathbone museum doesn't appear to have an IJA flight suit.
I'll have to see if any of my books have pretty, pretty pictures, and/or notes regarding the the IJA.

Sergeant appeared to be a generic rank in the IJA...I'm sure there were degrees of Sergeant, but it looked like no matter if you were Squad Leader, Platoon Sergeant, or Company NCO, your rank tab was the same. The same with Sergeant Major, whether you were Battalion, Brigade, or Regiment NCO.

A few things:
1. There were collar insignia in Luftwaffe that could be 'navalized' by adding the wavy lines, anchors, and/or device specific to the corps the officer belonged to.
2. There appears to be a way to 'navalize' the collar insignia for the Wehrmacht to form collar insignia for both the Navy and the Wehrmacht. The sub-, junior, and senior (and general, but that's less important)officer collar insignia were distinct. Simply add a rosette or two, and you get an insignia that would take into account the shoulder boards of a lieutenant and major. Somewhere I saw a 'soldier' with gold instead of the silver highlights. I'm 99% certain he was a sailor or a coastal artillery man. If that were the case, then using silver for the Wehrmacht and Gold for the Kriegsmarine would be plausible.

http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option=com_insigniasearch&Itemid=53&result=370

http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option=com_insigniasearch&Itemid=53&result=367

http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option=com_insigniasearch&Itemid=53&result=2822

http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?option=com_insigniasearch&Itemid=53&result=380


On to the Imperial Japanese military.
According to the 'Imperial Japanese Army and Navy Uniforms & Equipment' NEW REVISED EDITION [sic] by Tadao Nakata and Thomas B. Nelson:
pg. 118:
IJA, Flying wear, winter, new style, old style.
Two relevant pictures of the above are shown with the IJA rank tab sown to the upper left arm, between elbow and shoulder, only.
pg 119:
Flying wear without life jacket, as before but with life jacket, and flying wear summer.
Four pictures with rank tabs on both collars.
The book is in Japanese, but the one I got came with a pamphlet with descriptions of the photos. I copied the descriptions nearly, but not, exactly.
The first 100 pages or so has rank insignia from various periods, so I'll see about scanning (or at least taking pictures) and sending them off to the sight.
Now, if only I could find that frelling Kriegsmarine book I have.

edit
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1958/kriegsmarine.png
Top row is based on the Luftwaffe. First two are enlisted, remainders are the top ranks in the Junior, Senior, and Flag Officer categories.
Bottom is inspired by the Wehrmacht. First two are, again, enlisted, while the next two are the lowest Junior and Senior Officer ranks. The last one is for K. z. S.
Using the gold for navy, silver for army, collar ranks could be assigned. I did not include the collar insignia for general officers and field marshal, because I've been up for too long, so it would be too much trouble. . The FM could use his crossed batons or the special collar patch since it's unique, while generals would use their tabs plus an increasing number of rosettes. Not sure how that would work in the navy, though.

my second attempt, I took the advice of putting the pips on the bars but find they might look a bit "star trekish".

[img]http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/203/kriegsmarinecollar2.png[/img]

Nice! Just wish the picture was a little bigger! DId you come up with anything for Grossadmiral insignia?

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:Nice! Just wish the picture was a little bigger! DId you come up with anything for Grossadmiral insignia?

bigger version:
[url]http://imageshack.us/f/191/kriegsmarinecollar2.png/[/url]

the grossadmiral would probably just be like the konteradmiral with silver crossed battons.

marcpasquin wrote:the grossadmiral would probably just be like the konteradmiral with silver crossed battons.

How about the crossed batons on a solid gold version of the KADM pin?